TV Viewers and Rules

[Whistling Straight]

I thought this to be a topic worthy of it's own thread. Should a tv viewer of a golf tournament be able to report a rules infraction?
My first thought is that, like everything in life, if you're caught breaking the rules you are busted. Just like being caught for speeding or any other breaking of rules, everyone, whether being seen on tv or in person, is "fair game".
Having said that, o no, why doesn't any other sport allow for this to happen? I can't think of any other sport that allows for fans to provide input in determining the outcome of a sporting event. I feel as though I'm incorrect in this statement, so can anyone think of a similar situation? If I see what I believe to be a referee's or umpire's "non-call" I can't call in. Why do the pro golf tours allegedly allow this to happen?

Bottom line, does the LPGA or PGA specifically address who is eligible to report rules infractions? Does anyone have any insight to this happening? Are the rules so vague that they allow for "anyone" to report an infraction?

[Blue]

Originally Posted by Whistling Straight

I thought this to be a topic worthy of it's own thread. Should a tv viewer of a golf tournament be able to report a rules infraction?
My first thought is that, like everything in life, if you're caught breaking the rules you are busted. Just like being caught for speeding or any other breaking of rules, everyone, whether being seen on tv or in person, is "fair game".
Having said that, o no, why doesn't any other sport allow for this to happen? I can't think of any other sport that allows for fans to provide input in determining the outcome of a sporting event. I feel as though I'm incorrect in this statement, so can anyone think of a similar situation? If I see what I believe to be a referee's or umpire's "non-call" I can't call in. Why do the pro golf tours allegedly allow this to happen?

Bottom line, does the LPGA or PGA specifically address who is eligible to report rules infractions? Does anyone have any insight to this happening? Are the rules so vague that they allow for "anyone" to report an infraction?

Speeding and violating the rules of golf or any other game are not comparable in my view.

When you speed, you break the laws established by the people in a society. You also put public safety at danger. Everyone has a right, even an obligation, to report people who are breaking the laws they, as members of society, have established. And everyone has a right to report those who by breaking laws put others at danger.

When you break the rules while playing a private game, the only people who should be involved in catching your violation or enforcing any penalty are the people involved in the game. In the case of a pro golf tournament, that's the players in that tournament and the officials.

It's not the job of the people watching at home to get involved in someone else's tournament.

[LoJo]

Originally Posted by Whistling Straight

I thought this to be a topic worthy of it's own thread. Should a tv viewer of a golf tournament be able to report a rules infraction?
My first thought is that, like everything in life, if you're caught breaking the rules you are busted. Just like being caught for speeding or any other breaking of rules, everyone, whether being seen on tv or in person, is "fair game".
Having said that, o no, why doesn't any other sport allow for this to happen? I can't think of any other sport that allows for fans to provide input in determining the outcome of a sporting event. I feel as though I'm incorrect in this statement, so can anyone think of a similar situation? If I see what I believe to be a referee's or umpire's "non-call" I can't call in. Why do the pro golf tours allegedly allow this to happen?

Bottom line, does the LPGA or PGA specifically address who is eligible to report rules infractions? Does anyone have any insight to this happening? Are the rules so vague that they allow for "anyone" to report an infraction?

WS.....parts of your post have been addressed in other threads regarding the Inkster incident.

I know there is a knee jerk reaction about t.v. viewers....often referred to as Rules Nazis...calling in to report violations of the Rules of Golf. Mostly it's a negative reaction, and includes the very question you asked. Why aren't other sports taking phone calls and emails about rules infractions?

Most other sports that are watched on t.v. are played in a very confined area.....basketball court...hockey arena...100 yard football field...baseball diamond. The referees and umpires are right "there" where the action is amongst the 10 or 22 players. They presumably are there to "see" everything that goes on, and to Rule immediately on any violations.

Additionally, umpires and refs in those sorts of sports are making judgment calls based on the Rules. Was that a strike or a ball? Was that pass interference? Of course, now in Football, we have instant replay in the pro game, which is helpful. It would be pointless for t.v. viewers to call in violations in those sports...there are dozens of penalty calls in every game...right or wrong. There are also dozens of POTENTIAL penalties that go uncalled where players "get away" with things...often to the delight of their fans.

That doesn't happen in golf, as you know.

Golf is self-regulating in that the players 'give' themselves penalties for breaches of the Rules....or their fellow competitors are obligated to call them too. If there's doubt...a Rules official is called in to clarify the Rule. The Rules of Golf are not generally open to judgment...they're pretty clear...they are not vague at all. Yes, there are interpretations, but it's based on fact and evidence and discussion with the players as to what actually happened. A golf official doesn't make a quick snap "call" as in other sports...right or wrong.

Clearly, a big difference between golf and others stadium/arena sports is the "size" of the venue. A golf tournament has maybe 144 players spread out over a 100 acres of land. Different 'action' is going on all the time...for hours. It would be impossible to have enough Rules Officials to cover every situation and every player as the rounds progress. Even in the USGA events where there is a Walking Referee with each group...it's impossible for that person to be with two or three players at the same time, at all times.

From discussions I've heard from Rules Officials, the calling in of potential Rules violations by t.v. viewers is not something they take lightly. It's been said they are willing to use any such means in order to make sure the integrity of the competition is maintained. As mentioned before...no doubt the Tours get a lot of whacko calls from so called "rules experts" which are frivolous and quickly dismissed as erroneous. But, when they hear something that may be credible, they are obligated to check it out. Obligated because the integrity of the game relies on strict adherence to the Rules of Golf.

Think about it...of all the called in Rules violations you've heard about....from Craig Stadler's "building a stance" with the towel on the ground, to this latest one with Inkster, or the Dustin Johnson situation at the PGA....haven't they all turned out the player DID, in fact, violate the Rules of Golf? Should that just be ignored and the Rules Officials look the other way and pretend it didn't happen when there is clearly video evidence that it did? Evidence viewed by tens of thousands of people? Evidence that the player violated a Rule which affects the competition.

That is the fundamental reason that players 'call' penalties on their fellow competitors....to protect the integrity of the game for the rest of the field.

One other point....it's not that players are "caught" breaking the Rules. That sounds like cheating....like being caught with your hand in the till. It's not like they are deliberately doing something they shouldn't. Most of these violations are inadvertant or done out of ignorance of the Rules. They...the player who violated the Rule INCURRED the penalty. It wasn't given like someone getting a speeding ticket...caught!

Anyhow....my 2 cents worth. Actually, way more than you wanted to hear I'm sure.

[LoJo]

Originally Posted by Blue

...

When you break the rules while playing a private game, the only people who should be involved in catching your violation or enforcing any penalty are the people involved in the game. In the case of a pro golf tournament, that's the players in that tournament and the officials.

It's not the job of the people watching at home to get involved in someone else's tournament.

The person (t.v. viewers) who point out that a violation occured aren't the ones who "enforce" the penalty. The officials ARE the ones who are obligated to do so, having been advised that a breach of the Rules occurred.

What if an on course spectator walks up to a Rules official and says "Jane Doe just kicked her ball out of a bad lie...and there was a t.v. camera right there...go look at the tape."

Should the Rules official ignore this?

[Whistling Straight]

LoJo...thank you so much for your response but I'm now more convinced than ever that this is an issue which needs to be determined...black and white...should a tv viewer be allowed to call to the attention of an official of a rules violation? Is this addressed specifically? Officials cannot be expected to cover 7,500 yards of play yet that justifies tv viewers to take their place? Your response contradicts itself by saying that golf is dependent upon golf being "self-regulating" yet you also allow for viewer feedback as credible as "they ae obligated to check it out" (the officials). Why? There is the question. What lends credibility to a viewer inquiry?

[Whistling Straight]

We need to press on this...under what rules determination does it say who is "qualified" to determine a rules determination over an infraction? A spectator, lets say Julie Inkster's mother, says to the walking official that the ball was not moved, by Julie, after grounding her club. This is currently ok?

[Whistling Straight]

I understand the ultimate decision-makers are the officials but I advocate the procedure for appeals and all decisions be specified by Procedure rather than Judgement. Do the LPGA and PGA allow viewer inquiries and what is the procedure if they are allowed to consider tv viewer inquiries?

[LoJo]

Originally Posted by Whistling Straight

LoJo...thank you so much for your response but I'm now more convinced than ever that this is an issue which needs to be determined...black and white...should a tv viewer be allowed to call to the attention of an official of a rules violation? Is this addressed specifically? Officials cannot be expected to cover 7,500 yards of play yet that justifies tv viewers to take their place? Your response contradicts itself by saying that golf is dependent upon golf being "self-regulating" yet you also allow for viewer feedback as credible as "they ae obligated to check it out" (the officials). Why? There is the question. What lends credibility to a viewer inquiry?

I can only assume that since all the Tours have taken calls or emails from t.v. viewers...and have acted on those calls/emails...they are not adverse to receiving such information. As I said before, I have heard Rules Officials remark that they are amenable to using whatever sources are presented in order to make a Ruling which may impact the integrity of the competition.

I'm sure not every viewer call in is credible. The crackpots are weeded out. But, what of the ones that may be credible?

I don't understand why there is a feeling that someone phoning in a Rules violation that DID IN FACT occur ...that person should be dismissed as if the infraction didn't occur.

I don't believe my comments about the game being self-regulating are contradictory to the rest of my opinions about OTHERS who may observe a violation of the Rules. By self-regulating, I meant that players themselves call penalties...unlike other sports where only umpires and refs do so.

You ask...what lends credibility to a veiwer inquiry?

OK....in Inkster's case. She was seen by thousands of viewers swinging an artificial device (training aid) on her club while waiting on the 10th tee. THIS IS A FACT. She was in violation of R. 14-3 (Dec. 14-3/10). THIS IS ALSO A FACT.

I would say that the viewer who emailed in the observation of this breach of the Rules was quite credible! From what I read, he/she quoted chapter and verse from the Rules of Golf regarding Inkster's violation. HOW could the LPGA Rules Officials dismiss this? How would that look when thousands of viewers had seen the same thing happen? What should they have done? Ignored it?

If the Rules officials on the various Tours disallow call ins or emails from viewers who correctly spot a violation of the Rules, they are going to have to say.....

"If we on the course...players or officials...didn't see it happen, it didn't happen. Despite video evidence that Mary Smith moved her ball in the rough...we didn't see it happen in person, so it didn't happen... no penalty."

When that day comes, I will give up watching or caring about tournament golf.

[Whistling Straight]

wow...so if millions of people saw an infraction made by Julie on tv then she should be penalized

[LoJo]

Originally Posted by Whistling Straight

wow...so if millions of people saw an infraction made by Julie on tv then she should be penalized

No, she was penalized because she violated Rule 14-3.

You are missing my point I guess.

By the way, I don't think millions of people even watch the LPGA anymore. I think I mentioned "thousands."