TV Viewers and Rules

Whistling Straight · 08-24-2010, 12:32 AM

My immediate reaction is that if there's not a rule which specifically addresses a procedure for reviewing an inquiry for a rules interpretation, then we should advocate one be made...and clearly differentiate inquiries made by course officials and/or "on course patrons or broadcast viewing public".

Putter · 08-24-2010, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Whistling Straight

wow...so if millions of people saw an infraction made by Julie on tv then she should be penalized

Millions? The LPGA wishes. I agree with what LoJo is saying - it's not like other sports. The rules officials can not be with each player all the time. So someone calls in and reports it...so what? It's up to the rules officials to decide if they want to check it out or dismiss it. In Juli's case, the "rules nazi" wasn't the only one who saw it, but they were smart enough (IMHO) to call (or email) it in. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Whistling Straight · 08-24-2010, 12:44 AM

LoJo...I've always highly respected your rules interpretations but on this one I'm not following your logic. Rules are rules but the debate on this thread concerns the credibility of people watching on tv versus what decisons are made on the golf course. Your responses have indicated you favor tv viewer feedback as legitimate sources of tournament decisions. Hopefully I've misinterpreted your thoughts. Whether Golfer "whoever" breaks "whatever" rule, should a tv viewer determine the outcome?

Whistling Straight · 08-24-2010, 12:52 AM

Putter...so if the rules officials agree to go along with someone who calls in the report...my point is that this "procedure" needs to be put in writing and not subjectively determined by a random caller. Who's to say who the caller is? So if the caller reports the incident after it happened how does a tournament official prove the incident? These things happen but it should be specified in a procedure.

heddwyn · 08-24-2010, 05:08 AM

" .... Golf is self-regulating in that the players 'give' themselves penalties for breaches of the Rules....or their fellow competitors are obligated to call them too. If there's doubt...a Rules official is called in to clarify the Rule. The Rules of Golf are not generally open to judgment...they're pretty clear...they are not vague at all. Yes, there are interpretations, but it's based on fact and evidence and discussion with the players as to what actually happened. A golf official doesn't make a quick snap "call" as in other sports...right or wrong.

From discussions I've heard from Rules Officials, the calling in of potential Rules violations by t.v. viewers is not something they take lightly. It's been said they are willing to use any such means in order to make sure the integrity of the competition is maintained. As mentioned before...no doubt the Tours get a lot of whacko calls from so called "rules experts" which are frivolous and quickly dismissed as erroneous. But, when they hear something that may be credible, they are obligated to check it out. Obligated because the integrity of the game relies on strict adherence to the Rules of Golf ..... "

WS, the above is copied from LoJo's first post on this. I just don't understand what you don't get. Reading your posts I feel you think that as soon as someone calls a possible infringement in the powers that be at the tournament immediately whack on what would be the appropriate penalty or instantly DQ the player. This is clearly not so. Read what LoJo said, a possible infringement which could be credible is investigated thoroughly before action is taken. Clearly there is a procedure for this, they do not just 'go along' with what the caller said. Given your concern, why don't you email the LPGA and ask them how something like this is proceeded with?

With this particular infringement the LPGA had already made a decision, but even so, they contacted the USGA to ensure they were right.

With regard to something being called in or reported after the event, remember a certain DQ of a young player which was notified by a reporter later that evening or the following day. Again, it was investigated before the player was DQ'ed. In that case, they asked the players in the group, checked the tapes etc etc. They are not idiots, even if we sometimes think they are.

From a personal point of view I don't happen to like that someone watching on TV can call a possible infringement in because the way they cover golf you are mostly going to be looking at the popular players, the 'also rans' get missed out. However, adhering to the ROG, trust and integrity of the game is a must and because of it I accept that viewers do call in. When all's said and done, the onus is on the player to know the Rules. How many times do we see a player call a rules official over to get a simple water hazard rule explained .... too often!

Blue · 08-24-2010, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by LoJo

The person (t.v. viewers) who point out that a violation occured aren't the ones who "enforce" the penalty. The officials ARE the ones who are obligated to do so, having been advised that a breach of the Rules occurred.

What if an on course spectator walks up to a Rules official and says "Jane Doe just kicked her ball out of a bad lie...and there was a t.v. camera right there...go look at the tape."

Should the Rules official ignore this?

Yes. The regulating of the game, any game, should not involve the spectators.

Blue · 08-24-2010, 07:09 AM

Another big reason spectators should not be involved in officiating a sport is that it's selective. We would hope that officials are looking out for all players equally. There is no way to know if this is true for viewers, either on site or on TV. In today's sports, gambling plays a big role. Who's to say that some spectator with a bet on an opposing player doesn't show up on the course and doggedly follow one particular player just looking for violation to bring to the attention of the officials.

Buzzer · 08-24-2010, 09:03 AM

Here is the opinion of the guys who cover golf for a living have on the Inlster gaff.......scroll down below the pic:

Jonathan Ferrey/Getty Images

Juli Inkster was disqualified from the Safeway Classic for taking practice swings with a weighted club.

Subscribe Now!

INKSTER'S MISTAKE AND GOLF'S WORST RULES
Shipnuck: Ai Miyazato's win at the LPGA Safeway Classic will be overshadowed by Juli Inkster's being disqualified on Saturday for using a weighted club while idling on a tee box mid-round. What does everyone think about golf's latest rules controversy?
Evans: Juli Inkster made a stupid mistake. What was she thinking using a swing aid in the middle of a round?
Van Sickle: This seems like a bad rule. Inkster wasn't hitting shots or practicing on the course; she was merely loosening up with a swing weight. Still, she has no excuse for not knowing it.
Herre: I wasn't aware of the rule Inkster violated, but you'd think a veteran pro would be. Also, I think it's cool that someone watching on TV called in the infraction. Golf is the only interactive sport that way, something that should be celebrated, not criticized. The people who complain about viewers or anyone, really, being able to call an infraction simply don't understand the rules and the game.
Hack: Funny, as a duffer with a million gadgets in his bag (Swingyde, Right Angle, Laser Finder, 2 by 4), even I knew they were forbidden during tournament play. Whether it's a good rule or a bad one, Juli broke it.
Bamberger: I don't get it. You can make practice swings with a headcover on, which does the same thing, right?
Van Sickle: Marketing opp, Bamberger: Weighted headcovers!
Shipnuck: Should golf rethink its rules in the 21st century and make wholesale changes, with a Common Sense Committee overseeing a drastic reduction in the number of subsets to every Rule?
Evans: The rules of golf are like the Constitution. You can amend them, but you can't just throw them out. I'm not against a yearly review of the rules by the two top governing bodies — the R & A and the USGA — but you can't get mad at them just because you break one that seems silly.
Herre: The rules are reviewed routinely by the USGA and the R&A, and you could argue that they are already based on common sense.
Lipsey: Jim is correct. The rules are based on very common sense, although it doesn't always look like they are when gaffes occur on a pro tour on TV.

Read more: PGA Tour Confidential: The Wyndham Championship - 3 - Tours & News - Golf.com

LoJo · 08-24-2010, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Whistling Straight

LoJo...I've always highly respected your rules interpretations but on this one I'm not following your logic. Rules are rules but the debate on this thread concerns the credibility of people watching on tv versus what decisons are made on the golf course. Your responses have indicated you favor tv viewer feedback as legitimate sources of tournament decisions. Hopefully I've misinterpreted your thoughts. Whether Golfer "whoever" breaks "whatever" rule, should a tv viewer determine the outcome?

The "viewer" never determines the outcome, the Rules Officials do.

The decisions are made on the golf course.

LoJo · 08-24-2010, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Whistling Straight

My immediate reaction is that if there's not a rule which specifically addresses a procedure for reviewing an inquiry for a rules interpretation, then we should advocate one be made...and clearly differentiate inquiries made by course officials and/or "on course patrons or broadcast viewing public".

How do you know there isn't a "rule" or Tour procedure written and in place to deal with viewer call ins? Since it happens all the time, I'd assume the Tour doesn't just go off like chickens with their heads cut off wondering what to do. Presumably, they have a procedure of how they're going to deal with it.

I know the PGA Tour used to have a Rules Official in a van watching the telecast, just for this very reason.

08-24-2010, 12:37 AM	#12
Putter Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 1,296 Images: 26	Originally Posted by Whistling Straight wow...so if millions of people saw an infraction made by Julie on tv then she should be penalized Millions? The LPGA wishes. I agree with what LoJo is saying - it's not like other sports. The rules officials can not be with each player all the time. So someone calls in and reports it...so what? It's up to the rules officials to decide if they want to check it out or dismiss it. In Juli's case, the "rules nazi" wasn't the only one who saw it, but they were smart enough (IMHO) to call (or email) it in. I don't see anything wrong with that. __________________ Putter

08-24-2010, 05:08 AM	#15
heddwyn Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,380	" .... Golf is self-regulating in that the players 'give' themselves penalties for breaches of the Rules....or their fellow competitors are obligated to call them too. If there's doubt...a Rules official is called in to clarify the Rule. The Rules of Golf are not generally open to judgment...they're pretty clear...they are not vague at all. Yes, there are interpretations, but it's based on fact and evidence and discussion with the players as to what actually happened. A golf official doesn't make a quick snap "call" as in other sports...right or wrong. From discussions I've heard from Rules Officials, the calling in of potential Rules violations by t.v. viewers is not something they take lightly. It's been said they are willing to use any such means in order to make sure the integrity of the competition is maintained. As mentioned before...no doubt the Tours get a lot of whacko calls from so called "rules experts" which are frivolous and quickly dismissed as erroneous. But, when they hear something that may be credible, they are obligated to check it out. Obligated because the integrity of the game relies on strict adherence to the Rules of Golf ..... " WS, the above is copied from LoJo's first post on this. I just don't understand what you don't get. Reading your posts I feel you think that as soon as someone calls a possible infringement in the powers that be at the tournament immediately whack on what would be the appropriate penalty or instantly DQ the player. This is clearly not so. Read what LoJo said, a possible infringement which could be credible is investigated thoroughly before action is taken. Clearly there is a procedure for this, they do not just 'go along' with what the caller said. Given your concern, why don't you email the LPGA and ask them how something like this is proceeded with? With this particular infringement the LPGA had already made a decision, but even so, they contacted the USGA to ensure they were right. With regard to something being called in or reported after the event, remember a certain DQ of a young player which was notified by a reporter later that evening or the following day. Again, it was investigated before the player was DQ'ed. In that case, they asked the players in the group, checked the tapes etc etc. They are not idiots, even if we sometimes think they are. From a personal point of view I don't happen to like that someone watching on TV can call a possible infringement in because the way they cover golf you are mostly going to be looking at the popular players, the 'also rans' get missed out. However, adhering to the ROG, trust and integrity of the game is a must and because of it I accept that viewers do call in. When all's said and done, the onus is on the player to know the Rules. How many times do we see a player call a rules official over to get a simple water hazard rule explained .... too often! Last edited by heddwyn; 08-24-2010 at 05:16 AM.

08-24-2010, 07:08 AM	#16
Blue Forum Moderator Contests: Joint 3rd place overall winner 2009. Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7,650 Images: 6	Originally Posted by LoJo The person (t.v. viewers) who point out that a violation occured aren't the ones who "enforce" the penalty. The officials ARE the ones who are obligated to do so, having been advised that a breach of the Rules occurred. What if an on course spectator walks up to a Rules official and says "Jane Doe just kicked her ball out of a bad lie...and there was a t.v. camera right there...go look at the tape." Should the Rules official ignore this? Yes. The regulating of the game, any game, should not involve the spectators.

08-24-2010, 07:09 AM	#17
Blue Forum Moderator Contests: Joint 3rd place overall winner 2009. Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7,650 Images: 6	Another big reason spectators should not be involved in officiating a sport is that it's selective. We would hope that officials are looking out for all players equally. There is no way to know if this is true for viewers, either on site or on TV. In today's sports, gambling plays a big role. Who's to say that some spectator with a bet on an opposing player doesn't show up on the course and doggedly follow one particular player just looking for violation to bring to the attention of the officials. Last edited by Blue; 08-24-2010 at 09:16 AM.

08-24-2010, 09:10 AM	#19
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by Whistling Straight LoJo...I've always highly respected your rules interpretations but on this one I'm not following your logic. Rules are rules but the debate on this thread concerns the credibility of people watching on tv versus what decisons are made on the golf course. Your responses have indicated you favor tv viewer feedback as legitimate sources of tournament decisions. Hopefully I've misinterpreted your thoughts. Whether Golfer "whoever" breaks "whatever" rule, should a tv viewer determine the outcome? The "viewer" never determines the outcome, the Rules Officials do. The decisions are made on the golf course.

08-24-2010, 12:32 AM	#11
Whistling Straight Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 450	My immediate reaction is that if there's not a rule which specifically addresses a procedure for reviewing an inquiry for a rules interpretation, then we should advocate one be made...and clearly differentiate inquiries made by course officials and/or "on course patrons or broadcast viewing public".

08-24-2010, 12:44 AM	#13
Whistling Straight Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 450	LoJo...I've always highly respected your rules interpretations but on this one I'm not following your logic. Rules are rules but the debate on this thread concerns the credibility of people watching on tv versus what decisons are made on the golf course. Your responses have indicated you favor tv viewer feedback as legitimate sources of tournament decisions. Hopefully I've misinterpreted your thoughts. Whether Golfer "whoever" breaks "whatever" rule, should a tv viewer determine the outcome?

08-24-2010, 12:52 AM	#14
Whistling Straight Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 450	Putter...so if the rules officials agree to go along with someone who calls in the report...my point is that this "procedure" needs to be put in writing and not subjectively determined by a random caller. Who's to say who the caller is? So if the caller reports the incident after it happened how does a tournament official prove the incident? These things happen but it should be specified in a procedure.

08-24-2010, 09:03 AM	#18
Buzzer Moderator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hilton Head, SC Posts: 2,831 Images: 13	Here is the opinion of the guys who cover golf for a living have on the Inlster gaff.......scroll down below the pic: Jonathan Ferrey/Getty Images Juli Inkster was disqualified from the Safeway Classic for taking practice swings with a weighted club. Subscribe Now! INKSTER'S MISTAKE AND GOLF'S WORST RULES Shipnuck: Ai Miyazato's win at the LPGA Safeway Classic will be overshadowed by Juli Inkster's being disqualified on Saturday for using a weighted club while idling on a tee box mid-round. What does everyone think about golf's latest rules controversy? Evans: Juli Inkster made a stupid mistake. What was she thinking using a swing aid in the middle of a round? Van Sickle: This seems like a bad rule. Inkster wasn't hitting shots or practicing on the course; she was merely loosening up with a swing weight. Still, she has no excuse for not knowing it. Herre: I wasn't aware of the rule Inkster violated, but you'd think a veteran pro would be. Also, I think it's cool that someone watching on TV called in the infraction. Golf is the only interactive sport that way, something that should be celebrated, not criticized. The people who complain about viewers or anyone, really, being able to call an infraction simply don't understand the rules and the game. Hack: Funny, as a duffer with a million gadgets in his bag (Swingyde, Right Angle, Laser Finder, 2 by 4), even I knew they were forbidden during tournament play. Whether it's a good rule or a bad one, Juli broke it. Bamberger: I don't get it. You can make practice swings with a headcover on, which does the same thing, right? Van Sickle: Marketing opp, Bamberger: Weighted headcovers! Shipnuck: Should golf rethink its rules in the 21st century and make wholesale changes, with a Common Sense Committee overseeing a drastic reduction in the number of subsets to every Rule? Evans: The rules of golf are like the Constitution. You can amend them, but you can't just throw them out. I'm not against a yearly review of the rules by the two top governing bodies — the R & A and the USGA — but you can't get mad at them just because you break one that seems silly. Herre: The rules are reviewed routinely by the USGA and the R&A, and you could argue that they are already based on common sense. Lipsey: Jim is correct. The rules are based on very common sense, although it doesn't always look like they are when gaffes occur on a pro tour on TV. Read more: PGA Tour Confidential: The Wyndham Championship - 3 - Tours & News - Golf.com

08-24-2010, 09:18 AM	#20
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by Whistling Straight My immediate reaction is that if there's not a rule which specifically addresses a procedure for reviewing an inquiry for a rules interpretation, then we should advocate one be made...and clearly differentiate inquiries made by course officials and/or "on course patrons or broadcast viewing public". How do you know there isn't a "rule" or Tour procedure written and in place to deal with viewer call ins? Since it happens all the time, I'd assume the Tour doesn't just go off like chickens with their heads cut off wondering what to do. Presumably, they have a procedure of how they're going to deal with it. I know the PGA Tour used to have a Rules Official in a van watching the telecast, just for this very reason.

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