Rule Hypothetical for Lojo/Staff

wiefan · 06-18-2010, 02:09 AM

Hi ya CTMurray....when the Wiesy/Samsung DQ came about ...we had a really long session with Lojo about the rules and stuff...if the player is using the string to determine any distances...it is an Infraction because the string becomes a Measuring Device....this is what "got my goat" about Robert O Smith...he admitted that he could NOT accurately say if the drop was indeed closer...I guess the contour of that slight down hill and the flag location threw him off....thus he USED His FAMOUS STRING to determine that it was indeed closer...players cannot use the string and just trust their judgement...I say...so should rules officials....Grace Park was Wiesy's playing partner and she didn't have a problem with the drop

Sports Illustrated Writer Baumberger did have a problem with the drop...after everyone left the green to go to the next hole....Baumberger measured the distances...it was indeed closer....now it gets interesting....on that next hole Grace was in Big trouble and it took a long long time for her to get out of her problem....Baumberger had PLENTY of time to either Alert Wiesy, wiesy's caddie, and/or an official to state his discovery...but instead, he stayed silent...he didn't come forth UNTIL "AFTER" WIESY SIGNED HER SCORECARD...if he did it Before she signed, I have NO Problem...but he waited until she would be DQ'd then he fessed up...as a Reporter, he NO longer REPORTED the news, he became the NEWS....reporters are supposed to Report the news, NOT become a Big Part of it...if he was going to become a "Part of the News"...he should have done his fessing up BEFORE Wiesy signed her card

anyway....that is all water under the bridge...hmmm...doesn't sound like it from me huh

anyway...all of you have a good day...see ya!!

ctmurray · 06-18-2010, 08:46 PM

I recall the discussion on this topic, I was hanging here at the time.

Everyone complains when the players demand an official, but I don't blame them since they have many "unofficial" officials watching their play (including TV viewers).

wiefan · 06-19-2010, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by ctmurray

I recall the discussion on this topic, I was hanging here at the time.

Everyone complains when the players demand an official, but I don't blame them since they have many "unofficial" officials watching their play (including TV viewers).

Hi ya CTmurray...actually I don't mind that Wiesy gets "Microscoped" on her every swing that can potentially find penalties....the way I look at it is this....This is the price of Fame and popularity...if you are popular to viewers (both rooting for and against you) and you get a lot of Press and TV time....you have to pay the consequences of intense scrutiny...a good example is the Leaf in the bunker that brushed back on the takeaway swing...players without cameras following their shots would NEVER have to take a penalty...but if you LIKE the camera and fame...then "Microscopic every movement" is the price you have to pay and deal with....all of this comes with the territory in my book

anyway...have a good day...see ya!!

MarinePaul · 06-19-2010, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by wiefan

Hi ya CTmurray...actually I don't mind that Wiesy gets "Microscoped" on her every swing that can potentially find penalties....the way I look at it is this....This is the price of Fame and popularity...if you are popular to viewers (both rooting for and against you) and you get a lot of Press and TV time....you have to pay the consequences of intense scrutiny...a good example is the Leaf in the bunker that brushed back on the takeaway swing...players without cameras following their shots would NEVER have to take a penalty...but if you LIKE the camera and fame...then "Microscopic every movement" is the price you have to pay and deal with....all of this comes with the territory in my book

anyway...have a good day...see ya!!

Wiefan, with or withour cameras, the incident you referred to would result in a penalty. Every player is subjected to the same rule. I honestly think that every player on the LPGA has enough integrity to call the penalty on themselves, even if no camera is there to record it.

LoJo · 06-19-2010, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by MarinePaul

Wiefan, with or withour cameras, the incident you referred to would result in a penalty. Every player is subjected to the same rule. I honestly think that every player on the LPGA has enough integrity to call the penalty on themselves, even if no camera is there to record it.

True, MP....however, if a player was UNAWARE that a breach of the Rules had occurred, and no one in their group was aware, and no one actually "saw" the breach, then there would be no penalty assessed.

Wiefan is correct in that 'high profile' players have cameras on them all the time and something that might go unnoticed and unknown, even to the player, is recorded on camera...and scrutinized in slo-mo, etc. Happens all the time on both Tours.

It's not a question of integrity of the player who may have unknowingly broken a Rule....the point is that Laura Lastplace is probably not going to have a camera on her every move/shot. She may also unknowingly/inadvertantly breach the Rules, but it'll go unreported.

MarinePaul · 06-19-2010, 05:54 PM

I grant you that, Lojo. In the case Wiefan mentioned, though, a player should be aware that the leaf did, in fact, move during the backswing. It's hard to believe, although it's a fact, that professional players and/or caddies, aren't familiar with the rules.

LoJo · 06-19-2010, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by MarinePaul

I grant you that, Lojo. In the case Wiefan mentioned, though, a player should be aware that the leaf did, in fact, move during the backswing. It's hard to believe, although it's a fact, that professional players and/or caddies, aren't familiar with the rules.

I disagree. A player might not know that a leaf in a hazard was touched on the backswing. We're talking about very minute issues here, and I would give the benefit of the doubt to the player.

There are many instances...on both Tours...where the player was unaware that a breach occured until provided with camera evidence. Camera evidence which is not available for every player in the field.

wiefan · 06-19-2010, 07:03 PM

Hi ya rules people...I have a scenerio that perhaps you can answer for me

lets imagine a Match play event...team scores are tied and this is the last group for the win on the very last hole...Match is all squared...Par five dogleg left...BLIND second shot..player x hits her drive and it ends up on a sprinkler head..free relief...she takes the drop and play continues...the hole is halved...then...Player Y says that Player x took a drop after her drive that was closer to the hole..thus incurring a penality and thus losing the hole and Match...they call in Robert O Smith and they go back to the sprinkler head and the divot of Player X....remember now that NO ONE can even see the top of the flagstick..so Robert O Smith gets out his TRUSTY BIG Ball of string and then proceeds to tie it to the flag and then walk all the way back to the sprinkler head and divot to measure....he finds out that indeed the drop was a little closer to the hole...so tell me what happens next...sure sure sure...it was "Chicken s**t" of Player Y....but rules are rules

here is another scenerio to that same situation...suppose that Player Y waited for Player X to drop and then tell her that "it looks like you are closer to the hole"...so player X picks up the ball and then proceeds to drop again...as soon as Player X picks up her Ball...Player Y says "FOUL"...you have touched a ball that is in play...here is my question....without a rules official present...can a player "RE-DROP" a ball in an "Iffy situation"....if that is the case...wouldn't more "Cheatful" players be doing this to improve their drop landings

in both scenerios...Player Y was an "a$$" but also just manipulating the rules to her advantage

anyway...whadda ya think...could this actually happen

have a good day folks...see ya!!

LoJo · 06-19-2010, 07:16 PM

Wiefan....please. Stop w/ the hypotheticals. There could be millions of hypotheticals in the play of a round.

What if a meteor suddenly hit on the green when a player was putting the ball? What if the player's fellow competitor had a seizure during her backswing? The rules don't anticipate these sorts of strange occurances happening.

Honestly, I have played a lot of tournament golf and have watched a lot of tournament golf, and have never encountered these sorts of off the wall events. I'm not saying it can't happen, but....give it a rest.

wiefan · 06-19-2010, 07:31 PM

wowWIE....if a meteor hit the green...do you know that the impact would cause devastation for Miles and miles...yep...I saw the movie "Armageddon"....the rippling effects would be tremendous...even if the Meteor was only the size of Robert O smith's ball of string

ok ok ok...I will knock it off...it is just that I have always thought that the rules of golf tried to cover EVERY single Possible scenerio

anyway...all of you have a good day...see ya...I am Tickled Pink...Wiesy made the cut...BARELY....she played excellent golf today....10 of 14 Fairways and 14 of 18 Girs and a HEAFTY 281.5 driving distance average

whew...the things I do to sneak in Wiesy info....I should be tarred and feather.....feather is ok, sounds like fun....but the Tar part sounds Painful....just kidding folks....have a good day...see ya!!

06-19-2010, 04:27 AM	#13
wiefan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4,135	Originally Posted by ctmurray I recall the discussion on this topic, I was hanging here at the time. Everyone complains when the players demand an official, but I don't blame them since they have many "unofficial" officials watching their play (including TV viewers). Hi ya CTmurray...actually I don't mind that Wiesy gets "Microscoped" on her every swing that can potentially find penalties....the way I look at it is this....This is the price of Fame and popularity...if you are popular to viewers (both rooting for and against you) and you get a lot of Press and TV time....you have to pay the consequences of intense scrutiny...a good example is the Leaf in the bunker that brushed back on the takeaway swing...players without cameras following their shots would NEVER have to take a penalty...but if you LIKE the camera and fame...then "Microscopic every movement" is the price you have to pay and deal with....all of this comes with the territory in my book anyway...have a good day...see ya!!

06-19-2010, 07:46 AM	#14
MarinePaul Moderator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Warren, Ohio Posts: 8,003	Originally Posted by wiefan Hi ya CTmurray...actually I don't mind that Wiesy gets "Microscoped" on her every swing that can potentially find penalties....the way I look at it is this....This is the price of Fame and popularity...if you are popular to viewers (both rooting for and against you) and you get a lot of Press and TV time....you have to pay the consequences of intense scrutiny...a good example is the Leaf in the bunker that brushed back on the takeaway swing...players without cameras following their shots would NEVER have to take a penalty...but if you LIKE the camera and fame...then "Microscopic every movement" is the price you have to pay and deal with....all of this comes with the territory in my book anyway...have a good day...see ya!! Wiefan, with or withour cameras, the incident you referred to would result in a penalty. Every player is subjected to the same rule. I honestly think that every player on the LPGA has enough integrity to call the penalty on themselves, even if no camera is there to record it. __________________ Happiness isn't getting what you want, it's wanting what you have.

06-19-2010, 02:10 PM	#15
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by MarinePaul Wiefan, with or withour cameras, the incident you referred to would result in a penalty. Every player is subjected to the same rule. I honestly think that every player on the LPGA has enough integrity to call the penalty on themselves, even if no camera is there to record it. True, MP....however, if a player was UNAWARE that a breach of the Rules had occurred, and no one in their group was aware, and no one actually "saw" the breach, then there would be no penalty assessed. Wiefan is correct in that 'high profile' players have cameras on them all the time and something that might go unnoticed and unknown, even to the player, is recorded on camera...and scrutinized in slo-mo, etc. Happens all the time on both Tours. It's not a question of integrity of the player who may have unknowingly broken a Rule....the point is that Laura Lastplace is probably not going to have a camera on her every move/shot. She may also unknowingly/inadvertantly breach the Rules, but it'll go unreported.

06-19-2010, 05:54 PM	#16
MarinePaul Moderator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Warren, Ohio Posts: 8,003	I grant you that, Lojo. In the case Wiefan mentioned, though, a player should be aware that the leaf did, in fact, move during the backswing. It's hard to believe, although it's a fact, that professional players and/or caddies, aren't familiar with the rules. __________________ Happiness isn't getting what you want, it's wanting what you have.

06-19-2010, 06:06 PM	#17
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by MarinePaul I grant you that, Lojo. In the case Wiefan mentioned, though, a player should be aware that the leaf did, in fact, move during the backswing. It's hard to believe, although it's a fact, that professional players and/or caddies, aren't familiar with the rules. I disagree. A player might not know that a leaf in a hazard was touched on the backswing. We're talking about very minute issues here, and I would give the benefit of the doubt to the player. There are many instances...on both Tours...where the player was unaware that a breach occured until provided with camera evidence. Camera evidence which is not available for every player in the field.

06-18-2010, 02:09 AM	#11
wiefan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4,135	Hi ya CTMurray....when the Wiesy/Samsung DQ came about ...we had a really long session with Lojo about the rules and stuff...if the player is using the string to determine any distances...it is an Infraction because the string becomes a Measuring Device....this is what "got my goat" about Robert O Smith...he admitted that he could NOT accurately say if the drop was indeed closer...I guess the contour of that slight down hill and the flag location threw him off....thus he USED His FAMOUS STRING to determine that it was indeed closer...players cannot use the string and just trust their judgement...I say...so should rules officials....Grace Park was Wiesy's playing partner and she didn't have a problem with the drop Sports Illustrated Writer Baumberger did have a problem with the drop...after everyone left the green to go to the next hole....Baumberger measured the distances...it was indeed closer....now it gets interesting....on that next hole Grace was in Big trouble and it took a long long time for her to get out of her problem....Baumberger had PLENTY of time to either Alert Wiesy, wiesy's caddie, and/or an official to state his discovery...but instead, he stayed silent...he didn't come forth UNTIL "AFTER" WIESY SIGNED HER SCORECARD...if he did it Before she signed, I have NO Problem...but he waited until she would be DQ'd then he fessed up...as a Reporter, he NO longer REPORTED the news, he became the NEWS....reporters are supposed to Report the news, NOT become a Big Part of it...if he was going to become a "Part of the News"...he should have done his fessing up BEFORE Wiesy signed her card anyway....that is all water under the bridge...hmmm...doesn't sound like it from me huh anyway...all of you have a good day...see ya!!

06-18-2010, 08:46 PM	#12
ctmurray Donating Member Contests: Joint 3rd place overall winner 2010. Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,176	I recall the discussion on this topic, I was hanging here at the time. Everyone complains when the players demand an official, but I don't blame them since they have many "unofficial" officials watching their play (including TV viewers).

06-19-2010, 07:03 PM	#18
wiefan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4,135	Hi ya rules people...I have a scenerio that perhaps you can answer for me lets imagine a Match play event...team scores are tied and this is the last group for the win on the very last hole...Match is all squared...Par five dogleg left...BLIND second shot..player x hits her drive and it ends up on a sprinkler head..free relief...she takes the drop and play continues...the hole is halved...then...Player Y says that Player x took a drop after her drive that was closer to the hole..thus incurring a penality and thus losing the hole and Match...they call in Robert O Smith and they go back to the sprinkler head and the divot of Player X....remember now that NO ONE can even see the top of the flagstick..so Robert O Smith gets out his TRUSTY BIG Ball of string and then proceeds to tie it to the flag and then walk all the way back to the sprinkler head and divot to measure....he finds out that indeed the drop was a little closer to the hole...so tell me what happens next...sure sure sure...it was "Chicken s**t" of Player Y....but rules are rules here is another scenerio to that same situation...suppose that Player Y waited for Player X to drop and then tell her that "it looks like you are closer to the hole"...so player X picks up the ball and then proceeds to drop again...as soon as Player X picks up her Ball...Player Y says "FOUL"...you have touched a ball that is in play...here is my question....without a rules official present...can a player "RE-DROP" a ball in an "Iffy situation"....if that is the case...wouldn't more "Cheatful" players be doing this to improve their drop landings in both scenerios...Player Y was an "a$$" but also just manipulating the rules to her advantage anyway...whadda ya think...could this actually happen have a good day folks...see ya!!

06-19-2010, 07:16 PM	#19
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Wiefan....please. Stop w/ the hypotheticals. There could be millions of hypotheticals in the play of a round. What if a meteor suddenly hit on the green when a player was putting the ball? What if the player's fellow competitor had a seizure during her backswing? The rules don't anticipate these sorts of strange occurances happening. Honestly, I have played a lot of tournament golf and have watched a lot of tournament golf, and have never encountered these sorts of off the wall events. I'm not saying it can't happen, but....give it a rest.

06-19-2010, 07:31 PM	#20
wiefan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4,135	wowWIE....if a meteor hit the green...do you know that the impact would cause devastation for Miles and miles...yep...I saw the movie "Armageddon"....the rippling effects would be tremendous...even if the Meteor was only the size of Robert O smith's ball of string ok ok ok...I will knock it off...it is just that I have always thought that the rules of golf tried to cover EVERY single Possible scenerio anyway...all of you have a good day...see ya...I am Tickled Pink...Wiesy made the cut...BARELY....she played excellent golf today....10 of 14 Fairways and 14 of 18 Girs and a HEAFTY 281.5 driving distance average whew...the things I do to sneak in Wiesy info....I should be tarred and feather.....feather is ok, sounds like fun....but the Tar part sounds Painful....just kidding folks....have a good day...see ya!!

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