A potential Rules Question....

wiefan · 08-29-2008, 09:30 PM

Hi ya Lojo and her staff of Knowledgeable Rules GURUS....my rules question has NOT happened YET....with Carolyn's "English" mandate...perhaps this rule Question will never have a chance to present itself....but here is my scenerio anyway

Let's say a foreign player hits her shot in an area where there are tons of options and penalties....suppose she calls in a rules Official that doesn't speak her language....let's say her caddie comes also from the same country as her....when the rules official comes and does his explaination and the choices that that she has, he does it in English....suppose he has no LPGA translator to assist him....what is the current rule about letting a Spectator come in and helping the Rules Official as a translator

the reason I ask is that a player is only suppose to have her caddy help her...no outside agents....granted a rules official would tell this translator to repeat only what he says verbatium....but since no one can guarantee that the Translator will do so....How does this work with the rule about NO Outside assistance other than the caddy for the player....I mean a translator could be suggesting that the player go back to the tee instead of dropping into a possible more trouble

as all of you know...I am a fan of Wiesy golf....when BJ stuck his nose into one of Wiesy's predicament and mentioned "Can't she go back to the Tee" and Janice Moodie stopped him for not giving advise since he was not the caddy....well folks, that is why I have this rules question...suppose Wiesy and her caddy didn't have comprehension of the english Language and didn't understand the Rules Official....and suppose BJ offered his translation in Korean....hmmmm....touchy huh!!!

anyway....so whadda ya think....Lojo and her dedicated Rules Staff members

I know this is just a scenerio....but what the heck!!....Wiesy is NOT playing and I have to do something to pass the time

anyway....have a good day....see ya!!

Buzzer · 08-30-2008, 09:47 AM

I don't know what LoJo's take will be on this, Wiefan, but: IMHO the translator is aiding the rules official, ergo, no harm, no foul.

Viva Annika

cougar · 08-30-2008, 02:26 PM

Buzzer, I disagree. If the rules official does not understand what the translator is saying, he (or she) cannot be sure that the translator is not giving advice. It is the player's obligation to rely only on the official's ruling, without interference from an outside agency. If she or her caddie cannot understand what the rules official is saying, then she is on her own.

Buzzer · 08-30-2008, 02:54 PM

Cougar....check with Robert O, or one of the rules officials you know,
the next tournament that you go to.

How would Paula, Morgan or one of the Americans that play on the JLPGA or KLPGA tour once in awhile get a ruling if not for a translator?

The United Nations would be totally ineffective if translators were perceived to be less than honest.

At the British Open two years ago, a translator was used to convey a ruling to Andres Romero when he badly misplayed the 17th hole. It eventually cost him the tournament.

I wouldn't be surprised (although I'm not aware of any) if translators have not already been used for such purposes on the LPGA tour.

Viva Annika

LoJo · 08-30-2008, 03:27 PM

I agree with cougar. It is the player's responsibility to know and understand the Rules of Golf. If assistance from a Rules Official is required, and it is likely to be in English, then it's too bad if the competitor doesn't fully understand without translation. There would be no way a Rules Official would take a translation from an outside observer.

The interpretation of the Rules is complex enough without throwing in the idea of "lost in translation!"

Perhaps the LPGA should have a Roving Rules Official who speaks Korean, huh? Oh wait...but then we'd have to have one who speaks Japanese, Swedish, Finnish, Spanish, etc.

By the way, in this particular "scenario" a competitor could ask for and receive information as to the Rules from a fellow competitor, as that does not constitute "Advice" per the Rules. She would, however, be taking a chance that the competitor's "translation" of the Rule was correct.

wiefan · 08-30-2008, 08:17 PM

Hi ya everyone...OK....considering that no one "quoted me verse and scripture numbers" I would guess that my scenerio was one NOT thought of by the rule makers

I like the answer of asking your fellow players....but like Lojo said...."Can you TRUST the info"...also...suppose they don't understand the foreign Language either

here is another question....suppose the rules official "Doesn't" use the translator and wishes to hand gesture and eye movement to get his options across....how long does he allow for the player to finally see what he is telling them...my guess is "NOT VERY LONG"....the player will just have to Hack out whatever option that she knows will not get her DQ'd and suffer the score of hitting it wayward...just my guess

anyway....if this scenerio was ever to present itself, it would sure BOLSTER the mandate that Carolyn proposes...especially in the sense of being better for the player in the long run

anyway....all of you have a good day....if you are in the Storm area...please be careful....it is becoming a category 5 Hurricane....anyway...see ya!!

Rossi · 11-26-2008, 10:00 AM

Hi Just food for thought....If you go and play overseas say on the ladies japan tour you have one year to speak the language and if you can't you are out. It seems to me all other countries can apply the rules they want because it's their country, their tour, you play by their rules. Funny only in America does it become a civil rights issue because of our loop holes. Question. If you paid $15,000 to play in a pro am with excitement to play with a tour pro, how would you feel if you realized you can't talk to them because of a language barrier? Well at least we know that wont happen on the Japan tour after a year....

Blue · 11-26-2008, 01:10 PM

According to this article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/new...v=st&type=lgns

players on the JLPGA don't have to speak Japanese themselves. Having an interpreter with them to translate or a Japense caddie to communicate is good enough.

Rossi · 11-26-2008, 01:25 PM

BLUE ,Thank you for that we were misinformed by some ladies that play out there. I will forward your article to the commisioner.

x-admin · 11-26-2008, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Rossi

Hi Just food for thought....If you go and play overseas say on the ladies japan tour you have one year to speak the language and if you can't you are out. It seems to me all other countries can apply the rules they want because it's their country, their tour, you play by their rules. Funny only in America does it become a civil rights issue because of our loop holes. Question. If you paid $15,000 to play in a pro am with excitement to play with a tour pro, how would you feel if you realized you can't talk to them because of a language barrier? Well at least we know that wont happen on the Japan tour after a year....

I'm kind of split on that. I sympathize with your pro am statement. If I was a sponsor I would definitely wish for the players to speak the language that my customers speak. On the other hand, it's also important to attract the best players from around the world. How many of the world's best players play on the Japan tour for more than one year? I would hope there could be a middle ground. It's encouraging to see most foreigners trying to learn/speak the language but there will always be a few that can't communicate. Looking at the article blue posted one business idea could be for caddies here in the US to learn Japanese and/or Korean and have a dual-duty. :-)

08-29-2008, 09:30 PM	#1
wiefan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4,135	A potential Rules Question.... Hi ya Lojo and her staff of Knowledgeable Rules GURUS....my rules question has NOT happened YET....with Carolyn's "English" mandate...perhaps this rule Question will never have a chance to present itself....but here is my scenerio anyway Let's say a foreign player hits her shot in an area where there are tons of options and penalties....suppose she calls in a rules Official that doesn't speak her language....let's say her caddie comes also from the same country as her....when the rules official comes and does his explaination and the choices that that she has, he does it in English....suppose he has no LPGA translator to assist him....what is the current rule about letting a Spectator come in and helping the Rules Official as a translator the reason I ask is that a player is only suppose to have her caddy help her...no outside agents....granted a rules official would tell this translator to repeat only what he says verbatium....but since no one can guarantee that the Translator will do so....How does this work with the rule about NO Outside assistance other than the caddy for the player....I mean a translator could be suggesting that the player go back to the tee instead of dropping into a possible more trouble as all of you know...I am a fan of Wiesy golf....when BJ stuck his nose into one of Wiesy's predicament and mentioned "Can't she go back to the Tee" and Janice Moodie stopped him for not giving advise since he was not the caddy....well folks, that is why I have this rules question...suppose Wiesy and her caddy didn't have comprehension of the english Language and didn't understand the Rules Official....and suppose BJ offered his translation in Korean....hmmmm....touchy huh!!! anyway....so whadda ya think....Lojo and her dedicated Rules Staff members I know this is just a scenerio....but what the heck!!....Wiesy is NOT playing and I have to do something to pass the time anyway....have a good day....see ya!!

11-26-2008, 01:39 PM	#10
x-admin Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 344	Originally Posted by Rossi Hi Just food for thought....If you go and play overseas say on the ladies japan tour you have one year to speak the language and if you can't you are out. It seems to me all other countries can apply the rules they want because it's their country, their tour, you play by their rules. Funny only in America does it become a civil rights issue because of our loop holes. Question. If you paid $15,000 to play in a pro am with excitement to play with a tour pro, how would you feel if you realized you can't talk to them because of a language barrier? Well at least we know that wont happen on the Japan tour after a year.... I'm kind of split on that. I sympathize with your pro am statement. If I was a sponsor I would definitely wish for the players to speak the language that my customers speak. On the other hand, it's also important to attract the best players from around the world. How many of the world's best players play on the Japan tour for more than one year? I would hope there could be a middle ground. It's encouraging to see most foreigners trying to learn/speak the language but there will always be a few that can't communicate. Looking at the article blue posted one business idea could be for caddies here in the US to learn Japanese and/or Korean and have a dual-duty. :-)

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08-30-2008, 09:47 AM	#2
Buzzer Moderator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hilton Head, SC Posts: 2,831 Images: 13	I don't know what LoJo's take will be on this, Wiefan, but: IMHO the translator is aiding the rules official, ergo, no harm, no foul. Viva Annika

08-30-2008, 02:26 PM	#3
cougar Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 734 Images: 20	Buzzer, I disagree. If the rules official does not understand what the translator is saying, he (or she) cannot be sure that the translator is not giving advice. It is the player's obligation to rely only on the official's ruling, without interference from an outside agency. If she or her caddie cannot understand what the rules official is saying, then she is on her own.

08-30-2008, 02:54 PM	#4
Buzzer Moderator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hilton Head, SC Posts: 2,831 Images: 13	Cougar....check with Robert O, or one of the rules officials you know, the next tournament that you go to. How would Paula, Morgan or one of the Americans that play on the JLPGA or KLPGA tour once in awhile get a ruling if not for a translator? The United Nations would be totally ineffective if translators were perceived to be less than honest. At the British Open two years ago, a translator was used to convey a ruling to Andres Romero when he badly misplayed the 17th hole. It eventually cost him the tournament. I wouldn't be surprised (although I'm not aware of any) if translators have not already been used for such purposes on the LPGA tour. Viva Annika

08-30-2008, 03:27 PM	#5
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	I agree with cougar. It is the player's responsibility to know and understand the Rules of Golf. If assistance from a Rules Official is required, and it is likely to be in English, then it's too bad if the competitor doesn't fully understand without translation. There would be no way a Rules Official would take a translation from an outside observer. The interpretation of the Rules is complex enough without throwing in the idea of "lost in translation!" Perhaps the LPGA should have a Roving Rules Official who speaks Korean, huh? Oh wait...but then we'd have to have one who speaks Japanese, Swedish, Finnish, Spanish, etc. By the way, in this particular "scenario" a competitor could ask for and receive information as to the Rules from a fellow competitor, as that does not constitute "Advice" per the Rules. She would, however, be taking a chance that the competitor's "translation" of the Rule was correct.

08-30-2008, 08:17 PM	#6
wiefan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4,135	Hi ya everyone...OK....considering that no one "quoted me verse and scripture numbers" I would guess that my scenerio was one NOT thought of by the rule makers I like the answer of asking your fellow players....but like Lojo said...."Can you TRUST the info"...also...suppose they don't understand the foreign Language either here is another question....suppose the rules official "Doesn't" use the translator and wishes to hand gesture and eye movement to get his options across....how long does he allow for the player to finally see what he is telling them...my guess is "NOT VERY LONG"....the player will just have to Hack out whatever option that she knows will not get her DQ'd and suffer the score of hitting it wayward...just my guess anyway....if this scenerio was ever to present itself, it would sure BOLSTER the mandate that Carolyn proposes...especially in the sense of being better for the player in the long run anyway....all of you have a good day....if you are in the Storm area...please be careful....it is becoming a category 5 Hurricane....anyway...see ya!!

11-26-2008, 10:00 AM	#7
Rossi LPGA Caddie Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tampa Florida Posts: 121	Hi Just food for thought....If you go and play overseas say on the ladies japan tour you have one year to speak the language and if you can't you are out. It seems to me all other countries can apply the rules they want because it's their country, their tour, you play by their rules. Funny only in America does it become a civil rights issue because of our loop holes. Question. If you paid $15,000 to play in a pro am with excitement to play with a tour pro, how would you feel if you realized you can't talk to them because of a language barrier? Well at least we know that wont happen on the Japan tour after a year....

11-26-2008, 01:10 PM	#8
Blue Forum Moderator Contests: Joint 3rd place overall winner 2009. Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7,650 Images: 6	According to this article: http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/new...v=st&type=lgns players on the JLPGA don't have to speak Japanese themselves. Having an interpreter with them to translate or a Japense caddie to communicate is good enough.

11-26-2008, 01:25 PM	#9
Rossi LPGA Caddie Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tampa Florida Posts: 121	BLUE ,Thank you for that we were misinformed by some ladies that play out there. I will forward your article to the commisioner.