Michelle Wie in training for politics.

gxer · 08-31-2010, 12:32 AM

Lojo, I know this is a rather old situation with Wiesy, but Wei under Par has a good video of the incident.
What would you have done had you been a rules official?

Michelle Wie Babbles for 12 Minutes to Appeal Penalty on Vimeo

gxer · 08-31-2010, 12:37 AM

Judy and company make the first call.

Michelle Wie's $90,000 Blunder on the 11th Hole at the Kia Classic on Vimeo

LoJo · 08-31-2010, 07:20 PM

I would have done exactly what the RO's did. Wie unfortunately, and probably inadvertantly, grounded her club in the hazard. It did not appear she was off balance, but perhaps she felt she was.

I also don't think the RO's should have allowed the cameras in the room for the whole deal, and I feel it should have been cut off after just showing that there was discussion going on.

Players are entitled to "plead their case" regarding situations which might result in a penalty. I can think of many times when Annika went on and on with RO's. You might remember the USWO at Pumpkin Ridge in '03 where Annika had a long discussion on camera with Kendra Graham regarding a drop from some porta-toilets and a large scoreboard. Also, Annika and Creamer were involved in a big, time-consuming debate with the RO's at the ADT after Annika hit her ball in the water on the 18th hole....somewhat contentious 'discussions' about where/if it crossed the hazard at a certain point.

When these incidents happen while the player is ON the course, we, as t.v. viewers, are likely going to be involved since the action is "live"...unlike the Wie incident which was not discussed until after the round.

Anyhow....what's your point in posting this? And....why am I replying?

gxer · 08-31-2010, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by LoJo

Anyhow....what's your point in posting this? And....why am I replying?

I was curious.

Since you are a big fan of Wie and a rules guru, I just wondered if you would have taken Michelle's word on the balance issue or not?

I have heard officials say, from time to time, that they take a player's word when all is said and done but they didn't in Michelle's case.

I remember the incidents you mentioned but don't forget Sophie at the Samsung a few years ago who talked her way out of a penalty by saying she didn't ground her putter but when I saw the incident on TV I would have bet the farm that she did ground her putter.
Anyway, in Sophie's case the officials ended up taking her word that she didn't ground her putter, therefore, no penalty.

Why take a player's word one time and not the other? Beats me.

ctmurray · 08-31-2010, 10:14 PM

I think the RO thought the video was convincing in the end. That she was standing fine after the shot, with no balance issues, and just relaxed her position on the club. I recall the RO explaining this to her. We heard her say that the video evidence did not reflect what she was feeling mentally, that she felt off balance even if the video seemed to show differently.

The video evidence with Sophie was less compelling, IMHO. And we just read here some more details, that she and her caddie had discussed the rule as they approached the green and had decided to not ground her putter. I am no sure what they had said to the RO for that incident, maybe the caddie testimony was helpful?

After the CN open they went to the post win interview before she had signed her card. I even think I saw her slightly confused as to where to go. So then I flashed back to the various incidents where players have screwed up the card lately.

xman5 · 09-01-2010, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by ctmurray

The video evidence with Sophie was less compelling, IMHO. And we just read here some more details, that she and her caddie had discussed the rule as they approached the green and had decided to not ground her putter. I am no sure what they had said to the RO for that incident, maybe the caddie testimony was helpful?

After the CN open they went to the post win interview before she had signed her card. I even think I saw her slightly confused as to where to go. So then I flashed back to the various incidents where players have screwed up the card lately.

I remember the Sohpie incident very well, since I am still steamed at the commentators (NBC, Roger Maltbie are you listening). They did a big hatchet job on her. There was absolutley no evidence that she ground her club. Before the ball moved at no time did the have her club head the ground and the ball in the same shot.

What they did was go to tape on a prior hole that showed her grounding her club and concluded that it is her normal routine to ground the club so she must have done it on the hole where the ball moved.

The ball was cleary in a bad spot and everyone new that it had the potential to move with the wind. She and her caddy no this and so did everyone. She said that she made sure that she did not ground her club because of the position.

As for Wie at the end of the CN she was confused. As she was walking off they stoped her for a TV interview. It seemed she wanted to go straight to the scoring tent and seemed that for a second she was worried that not going directly to the tent and stopping to talk to the tv may cause her a problem. I guess that happens when you dont' win that often. Now she knows. It was funny for a moment when her expression was you can't stop me I have to sign my card, I can't make a mistake.

gxer · 09-01-2010, 01:43 PM

Roger and Dottie both shut up when Sophie wasn't penalized but you are correct, before the ruling was made, they were convinced, as I was, that Sophie had grounded her putter. In the end, Sophie's word that she didn't ground her putter was enough for the officials.

My wife's cousin, who saw the incident and knew that Sophie was dating then LPGA tour commissioner, Ty Votaw, was convinced that Sophie got a break because of her relationship with Votaw. Of course, that was denied, but you know how people are, many still believe Sophie was treated with kid gloves and not rule gloves.

IMO, if Wiesy did not have a reputation for breaking golf rules the officials might have given her the benefit of reasonable doubt, especially since her right foot was completely in the water and mud.

No one, I mean no one, with any brain cells, believes that Wiesy gained any benefit from touching the ground with her club inside the hazard line after hitting the water shot.

gxer · 09-01-2010, 02:02 PM

OK Lojo I need you again.

I think upon further review that the ruling made against Wiesy was incorrect and I say that because of the following note to rule 13-4.
-------------------
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.
------------------
Let's put the bold words together. At any time the player may touch with a club any grass

Now look at the videos again and tell me when did Wiesy touch anything other than grass after making her water shot?

USGA: Rules and Decisions

xman5 · 09-01-2010, 04:00 PM

If she has any case she can argue under this ruling.

13-4/3.5 Player Uses Cane or Club to Enter or Leave Hazard When Ball Lies in Hazard

LoJo · 09-01-2010, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by gxer

OK Lojo I need you again.

I think upon further review that the ruling made against Wiesy was incorrect and I say that because of the following note to rule 13-4.
-------------------
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.
------------------
Let's put the bold words together. At any time the player may touch with a club any grass

Now look at the videos again and tell me when did Wiesy touch anything other than grass after making her water shot?

USGA: Rules and Decisions

There is no penalty for "touching" any grass, bush, etc.

The penalty is for GROUNDING one's club in a hazard, which is what Wie did, and for which she was penalized.

"Grounding" is defined as when the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club.

08-31-2010, 12:32 AM	#1
gxer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,050	Michelle Wie in training for politics. Lojo, I know this is a rather old situation with Wiesy, but Wei under Par has a good video of the incident. What would you have done had you been a rules official? Michelle Wie Babbles for 12 Minutes to Appeal Penalty on Vimeo __________________ *My "dream" girl: LPGA seasonal tour stats <=65.50 & >=270* Last edited by gxer; 08-31-2010 at 12:37 AM.

08-31-2010, 12:37 AM	#2
gxer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,050	Judy and company make the first call. Michelle Wie's $90,000 Blunder on the 11th Hole at the Kia Classic on Vimeo __________________ *My "dream" girl: LPGA seasonal tour stats <=65.50 & >=270*

08-31-2010, 08:03 PM	#4
gxer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,050	Originally Posted by LoJo Anyhow....what's your point in posting this? And....why am I replying? I was curious. Since you are a big fan of Wie and a rules guru, I just wondered if you would have taken Michelle's word on the balance issue or not? I have heard officials say, from time to time, that they take a player's word when all is said and done but they didn't in Michelle's case. I remember the incidents you mentioned but don't forget Sophie at the Samsung a few years ago who talked her way out of a penalty by saying she didn't ground her putter but when I saw the incident on TV I would have bet the farm that she did ground her putter. Anyway, in Sophie's case the officials ended up taking her word that she didn't ground her putter, therefore, no penalty. Why take a player's word one time and not the other? Beats me. __________________ *My "dream" girl: LPGA seasonal tour stats <=65.50 & >=270*

09-01-2010, 12:07 PM	#6
xman5 Contest Statistician Join Date: May 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 3,903	Originally Posted by ctmurray The video evidence with Sophie was less compelling, IMHO. And we just read here some more details, that she and her caddie had discussed the rule as they approached the green and had decided to not ground her putter. I am no sure what they had said to the RO for that incident, maybe the caddie testimony was helpful? After the CN open they went to the post win interview before she had signed her card. I even think I saw her slightly confused as to where to go. So then I flashed back to the various incidents where players have screwed up the card lately. I remember the Sohpie incident very well, since I am still steamed at the commentators (NBC, Roger Maltbie are you listening). They did a big hatchet job on her. There was absolutley no evidence that she ground her club. Before the ball moved at no time did the have her club head the ground and the ball in the same shot. What they did was go to tape on a prior hole that showed her grounding her club and concluded that it is her normal routine to ground the club so she must have done it on the hole where the ball moved. The ball was cleary in a bad spot and everyone new that it had the potential to move with the wind. She and her caddy no this and so did everyone. She said that she made sure that she did not ground her club because of the position. As for Wie at the end of the CN she was confused. As she was walking off they stoped her for a TV interview. It seemed she wanted to go straight to the scoring tent and seemed that for a second she was worried that not going directly to the tent and stopping to talk to the tv may cause her a problem. I guess that happens when you dont' win that often. Now she knows. It was funny for a moment when her expression was you can't stop me I have to sign my card, I can't make a mistake.

09-01-2010, 01:43 PM	#7
gxer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,050	Roger and Dottie both shut up when Sophie wasn't penalized but you are correct, before the ruling was made, they were convinced, as I was, that Sophie had grounded her putter. In the end, Sophie's word that she didn't ground her putter was enough for the officials. My wife's cousin, who saw the incident and knew that Sophie was dating then LPGA tour commissioner, Ty Votaw, was convinced that Sophie got a break because of her relationship with Votaw. Of course, that was denied, but you know how people are, many still believe Sophie was treated with kid gloves and not rule gloves. IMO, if Wiesy did not have a reputation for breaking golf rules the officials might have given her the benefit of reasonable doubt, especially since her right foot was completely in the water and mud. No one, I mean no one, with any brain cells, believes that Wiesy gained any benefit from touching the ground with her club inside the hazard line after hitting the water shot. __________________ *My "dream" girl: LPGA seasonal tour stats <=65.50 & >=270*

08-31-2010, 07:20 PM	#3
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	I would have done exactly what the RO's did. Wie unfortunately, and probably inadvertantly, grounded her club in the hazard. It did not appear she was off balance, but perhaps she felt she was. I also don't think the RO's should have allowed the cameras in the room for the whole deal, and I feel it should have been cut off after just showing that there was discussion going on. Players are entitled to "plead their case" regarding situations which might result in a penalty. I can think of many times when Annika went on and on with RO's. You might remember the USWO at Pumpkin Ridge in '03 where Annika had a long discussion on camera with Kendra Graham regarding a drop from some porta-toilets and a large scoreboard. Also, Annika and Creamer were involved in a big, time-consuming debate with the RO's at the ADT after Annika hit her ball in the water on the 18th hole....somewhat contentious 'discussions' about where/if it crossed the hazard at a certain point. When these incidents happen while the player is ON the course, we, as t.v. viewers, are likely going to be involved since the action is "live"...unlike the Wie incident which was not discussed until after the round. Anyhow....what's your point in posting this? And....why am I replying?

08-31-2010, 10:14 PM	#5
ctmurray Donating Member Contests: Joint 3rd place overall winner 2010. Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,176	I think the RO thought the video was convincing in the end. That she was standing fine after the shot, with no balance issues, and just relaxed her position on the club. I recall the RO explaining this to her. We heard her say that the video evidence did not reflect what she was feeling mentally, that she felt off balance even if the video seemed to show differently. The video evidence with Sophie was less compelling, IMHO. And we just read here some more details, that she and her caddie had discussed the rule as they approached the green and had decided to not ground her putter. I am no sure what they had said to the RO for that incident, maybe the caddie testimony was helpful? After the CN open they went to the post win interview before she had signed her card. I even think I saw her slightly confused as to where to go. So then I flashed back to the various incidents where players have screwed up the card lately.

09-01-2010, 02:02 PM	#8
gxer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,050	OK Lojo I need you again. I think upon further review that the ruling made against Wiesy was incorrect and I say that because of the following note to rule 13-4. ------------------- Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing. ------------------ Let's put the bold words together. At any time the player may touch with a club any grass Now look at the videos again and tell me when did Wiesy touch anything other than grass after making her water shot? USGA: Rules and Decisions __________________ *My "dream" girl: LPGA seasonal tour stats <=65.50 & >=270* Last edited by gxer; 09-01-2010 at 02:04 PM.

09-01-2010, 04:00 PM	#9
xman5 Contest Statistician Join Date: May 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 3,903	If she has any case she can argue under this ruling. 13-4/3.5 Player Uses Cane or Club to Enter or Leave Hazard When Ball Lies in Hazard

09-01-2010, 04:12 PM	#10
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by gxer OK Lojo I need you again. I think upon further review that the ruling made against Wiesy was incorrect and I say that because of the following note to rule 13-4. ------------------- Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing. ------------------ Let's put the bold words together. At any time the player may touch with a club any grass Now look at the videos again and tell me when did Wiesy touch anything other than grass after making her water shot? USGA: Rules and Decisions There is no penalty for "touching" any grass, bush, etc. The penalty is for GROUNDING one's club in a hazard, which is what Wie did, and for which she was penalized. "Grounding" is defined as when the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club.

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