Julie Inkster related question

ctmurray · 08-23-2010, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by LoJo

We're kinda "off topic" here, but I know a lot of people don't "get" why it's ok to fix ball marks (pitch marks) and old hole plugs, but not to repair spike marks. I used to have a hard time understanding it.

By the way...you cannot fix "other blemishes" as you said, on the green. Only ball marks or old hole plugs.

And...that's really the essence of why spike marks are excluded from being fixed prior to putting. Spike marks are not always distinguishable from other irregularities or damage to the greens (also excluded from being fixed)....other "blemishes" as you said.

The USGA compares irregularities to the putting surfaces, such as spike marks, to be like divots in the fairways. And...it goes back to the principle of playing the ball as it lies and playing the course as you find it. Spike marks and fairway divots are a normal occurance in the play of the game. Rub of the green if it happens to be in your line or affecting your lie.

As regarding why ball marks are allowed to be fixed....a ball mark is something you as a player caused in your play of the hole, so you are allowed to repair the putting surface to the condition it was before your ball made a mark. Since there might be multiple ball marks on a green (from your fellow competitors, for example), it may not be clear "which" is the one YOU made, and which might have been made by someone else...so all ball marks are allowed to be repaired.

Thanks for the info. You are the first person that has ever explained these seemingly illogical rules in a manner that actually makes some sense. It is somewhat comforting to know they are not arbitrary.

Can you explain the putter touching the green and the wind blows your ball penalty so it makes sense (even if you step away, no matter how long before the ball moves penalty)? Unlike the grounding the club in the bunker you are not testing the surface. If you made the rule that you just had to replace your ball to its original spot with no penalty you could not make any advantage of this unfortunate incident.

xman5 · 08-24-2010, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by ajraymond

I once saw Ernie Els hit a ball under a little bridge crossing a creek and get a free drop because he was standing on the cart path around the bridge. I also believe he was selling the fact that he was going to hit it left handed as well. Wildest ruling I've ever seen. It was a European event and he either came first or second in that tournament. As for the spikes, remember when a rather rotund Philly Mick had that routine of circling the hole reading putts at the Masters that one year? He had steel spikes on and was leaving crop circles around the hole. I think if I'm not mistaken it almost lead to blows with Vijay who was following two groups behind. Now I don't know the exact rule, but here is a guy leaving huge spike marks around the greens with no penalty but these guys have to putt through them and take a penalty if they tap them down? Makes no sense to me but oh well.

After you finish playing you can and should tap down the spike marks. Then there is no penalty. Dosn't help you but helps the next guy. If everyone did that it would not be a problem.

I remember it. VJ was pretty mad.

VJ is also pretty good at using the rules. I remember a few years ago at the Barclays, it was very wet around the course, and twice he was able to use a questionable (in my opinion) casual water ruling to move his ball around a tree.

ctmurray · 08-24-2010, 03:08 PM

Just the other day I saw a piece during golf coverage where the officials hunted down a player who was leaving massive spike marks. They went to each group and asked who had metal spikes and then asked that person about spike marks. Each person said they had seen spike marks on the green when they arrived, so the official scooted onto the next group. The finally found the guy and made him change his shoes to non-metal spikes (conveniently the shoe reps are all handy with every size imaginable). The TV coverage had images of this guy leaving a green and he was pulling up grass bits like a machine.

08-23-2010, 11:26 PM	#21
ctmurray Donating Member Contests: Joint 3rd place overall winner 2010. Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,176	Originally Posted by LoJo We're kinda "off topic" here, but I know a lot of people don't "get" why it's ok to fix ball marks (pitch marks) and old hole plugs, but not to repair spike marks. I used to have a hard time understanding it. By the way...you cannot fix "other blemishes" as you said, on the green. Only ball marks or old hole plugs. And...that's really the essence of why spike marks are excluded from being fixed prior to putting. Spike marks are not always distinguishable from other irregularities or damage to the greens (also excluded from being fixed)....other "blemishes" as you said. The USGA compares irregularities to the putting surfaces, such as spike marks, to be like divots in the fairways. And...it goes back to the principle of playing the ball as it lies and playing the course as you find it. Spike marks and fairway divots are a normal occurance in the play of the game. Rub of the green if it happens to be in your line or affecting your lie. As regarding why ball marks are allowed to be fixed....a ball mark is something you as a player caused in your play of the hole, so you are allowed to repair the putting surface to the condition it was before your ball made a mark. Since there might be multiple ball marks on a green (from your fellow competitors, for example), it may not be clear "which" is the one YOU made, and which might have been made by someone else...so all ball marks are allowed to be repaired. Thanks for the info. You are the first person that has ever explained these seemingly illogical rules in a manner that actually makes some sense. It is somewhat comforting to know they are not arbitrary. Can you explain the putter touching the green and the wind blows your ball penalty so it makes sense (even if you step away, no matter how long before the ball moves penalty)? Unlike the grounding the club in the bunker you are not testing the surface. If you made the rule that you just had to replace your ball to its original spot with no penalty you could not make any advantage of this unfortunate incident.

08-24-2010, 10:06 AM	#22
xman5 Contest Statistician Join Date: May 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 3,904	Originally Posted by ajraymond I once saw Ernie Els hit a ball under a little bridge crossing a creek and get a free drop because he was standing on the cart path around the bridge. I also believe he was selling the fact that he was going to hit it left handed as well. Wildest ruling I've ever seen. It was a European event and he either came first or second in that tournament. As for the spikes, remember when a rather rotund Philly Mick had that routine of circling the hole reading putts at the Masters that one year? He had steel spikes on and was leaving crop circles around the hole. I think if I'm not mistaken it almost lead to blows with Vijay who was following two groups behind. Now I don't know the exact rule, but here is a guy leaving huge spike marks around the greens with no penalty but these guys have to putt through them and take a penalty if they tap them down? Makes no sense to me but oh well. After you finish playing you can and should tap down the spike marks. Then there is no penalty. Dosn't help you but helps the next guy. If everyone did that it would not be a problem. I remember it. VJ was pretty mad. VJ is also pretty good at using the rules. I remember a few years ago at the Barclays, it was very wet around the course, and twice he was able to use a questionable (in my opinion) casual water ruling to move his ball around a tree.

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08-24-2010, 03:08 PM	#23
ctmurray Donating Member Contests: Joint 3rd place overall winner 2010. Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,176	Just the other day I saw a piece during golf coverage where the officials hunted down a player who was leaving massive spike marks. They went to each group and asked who had metal spikes and then asked that person about spike marks. Each person said they had seen spike marks on the green when they arrived, so the official scooted onto the next group. The finally found the guy and made him change his shoes to non-metal spikes (conveniently the shoe reps are all handy with every size imaginable). The TV coverage had images of this guy leaving a green and he was pulling up grass bits like a machine.