Oh NO! She's gonna get hammered for this one!

[PW]

I'm still not convinced JJ double hit the ball. I read somewhere that they changed the rulling after they got several calls from viewers complaining. Seems odd that they looked at the replay themselves and couldn't make a judgement, but took the word of viewers over their own judgement. Were the worried about bad publicity?

[DJGOLFER59]

thanks for clearing up the rule for me lojo and 4putt.

as long as were talking about pace of play now, pat hurst is certainly one of the quickest players. its nice to see. a lot (and one big name player in the top 3 on the money list, not naming names, is super slow *cough cough karrie webb*) are really slow, which imo makes it kinda boring especially when your watching in person.

[LoJo]

I don't think the USGA is ever worried about bad publicity. They seem to thrive on it.

As has been stated many times in the past, the USGA uses every means available...including 'armchair quarterback rules officials'....to make the right ruling. So, if they reconsidered after receiving phone calls telling them to take another look, that's fine.

I'm sure JJ honestly believed she hit the ball only once. I, also, am not convinced that she wasn't right. Certainly, in her heart she was. But, the video 'evidence' points the other way. How else would the ball have veered so severely off its initial flight path? I doubt a divot or some flying grass would have knocked it that severely to the right. But....all a moot point now.

As I said earlier, I believe they made a quick judgment initially because JJ had to sign her card prior to beginning the 4th round....with only a short time frame available. It was an unusual situation with the time issue. But, then it gave the USGA more time to study the issue and rethink their decision.

[PW]

Hi LoJo, it could have hit a twig, or been pushed off course by the grass and other debris JJ's club pushed up. I agree, the most likely case was her club hit it, but there could have been other explanations.

But, as you say it's a moot point now, though it is different from the normal armchair quarterback since the viewers provided no new information and they had already reviewed the replay.

Anyway, no biggie, I've done judging myself and very often you are faced with trying to choose the best amoung a bunch of bad options when making a ruling.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by LoJo

Of course, expert golfers will play quicker than those who are struggling to break 100. Clearly, it takes more time to hit it 100 times than 72 times. But what has that to do with playing by the Rules?

Someone mentioned that busy Muni courses required one to play by some "other" Rules in order to speed up play. I say that playing the game by the Rules takes no more time than playing these so called "winter rules." Possibly less if players understand their options.

As Dottie Pepper said, in a discussion about the glacial-paced Shi Hyun Ahn....she's never ready to hit the ball!

You're right in your assessment of Hurst and Sorenstam's pace today. Mix someone like Ahn or McGill or Grace Park in the round today instead of Sorenstam and Hurst, and we'd still have been watching well past 1pm.

It's not the Rules causing slow play. It's idiots causing slow play.

You're the one who initially brought up the fact that Hurst and Sorenstam played by the rules at the US Open and still finished in 3.25 hours. I was just responding that the pace of their play had little to do with whether they played by the rules or not. It had to do with the number and placement of shots taken and their general pace of play, which, I agree, is refreshingly fast for LPGA players, especially in those conditions.

To your list of Ahn, McGill or Gr. Park, you can add 80% of the field at most LPGA events.

[4putt]

Originally Posted by LoJo

4Putt.... 99% of the golfers I play with play by the Rules of Golf. The other 1%...I don't play with if they want to play some other Rules.

As for 99% of your playing buddies strictly playing by the rules (like a U.S. Open, like a tournament, like you guys sign your cards and disqualify each other if they accidentally sign a incorrect card), then you're very lucky. For me, in all my years of playing this great game (not tournament golf, by the way) I haven't come across a full 4 some that plays like that. By the way, when i'm playing a friendly round with my father-in-law for 20 bucks and I suspect he somehow unintentionally broke some obscure rule, no way am i gonna disqualify him and not pay him his $20. Cheating and not following all the rules to a tee is very different. I'll let it go unless I believe it was done to cheat.

And yes, I'm going to play with them.

Originally Posted by LoJo

I don't understand how "winter rules" speed up the play of the game. Winter Rules is the term generally used when improving the lie of the ball because of "winter" or bad course conditions. How does this speed up play? Or are you and cleo using the term "winter rules" to mean a casual understanding of and adhering to some of the Rules, but not others?

If you're not playing by the Rules of Golf, then what game are you playing?

Trust me...it takes no longer to play by the Rules. Pat Hurst and Annika Sorenstam played one of the most important rounds of their careers this morning in under 3 and 1/2 hrs. Playing by the Rules.

OK, OK, OK...obviously i can't debate with you that one should not play by the rules (or cheat, as i believe that's what you think it is), especially since i fundamentally believe the same thing. The off-handed remark i made to cleo that "we all play winter rules" was intended to be light hearted and just casual, conversational posting...Not something warranting a debate.

"Winter Rules" was used loosely by us as breaking some rules. at least that's the way i used it. Probably not used very accurately. But come on! is a message board, not a court of law...give some slack.

Originally Posted by LoJo

Sorry....you can't "walk back to the tee to hit a provisional." The playing of a provisional ball to save time must be announced and hit before going forward to search for your ball which might be lost. See R. 27-2

If you'd like to discuss any Rules, I'd be happy to do so in the Rules Folder on this board.

I mis-spoke (typed) by using the word provisional...i should have said walk all the way back to the tee to re-tee, not hit a provisional. but, then again, i'm sure you knew what i was talking about.

Man, I really have to watch what I type with you around, huh? Maybe at least when it comes to rules....

I'm hoping you understand the spirit of the comments we made (and which you apparently took offense to) and just let it go. But if you're really intent on flexing your brain, I too will see you in the Rules Forum.

[MarinePaul]

4Putt, I'm of the belief that a ball should be played as it lies, good, bad or indifferent. My understanding of "winter rules" is improving the lie of the ball. I do know that the majority of players in our area do "fluff" the ball. I choose not to do that, mostly because I compete with myself rather than another player. On those rare occasions when I play better than my handicap, it's a true sense of accomplishment.

[4putt]

Originally Posted by MarinePaul

4Putt, I'm of the belief that a ball should be played as it lies, good, bad or indifferent. My understanding of "winter rules" is improving the lie of the ball. I do know that the majority of players in our area do "fluff" the ball. I choose not to do that, mostly because I compete with myself rather than another player. On those rare occasions when I play better than my handicap, it's a true sense of accomplishment.

I agree MP. The ball should always be played as it lies. As I mentioned before, I used the term winter rules lightly, and as pointed out, wrongly. Oh well, it's not the first time I was careless with words, and will not be the first. In any case, I agree with you, the game and your accomplishments are much more rewarding when played by the rules.

[MarinePaul]

4Putt, I've made so many mis-statements on this board that I might hold the record, with the possible exception of WieFan. I think that most of the time the disagreements we have on this site are more the result of context than anything else.

[xman5]

I know this is late but do Winter Rules really exsist. I always use it as a satirical reference to Judge Smales in Caddy Shack kicking his ball into the fairway claiming Winter Rules with his caddies encouragement.

To me winter rules are when you play in the north during the off season and you are in an area that should be marked as ground under repair but they do not bother to mark it so instead of playing on dirt in the middle of the fairway you put your ball on grass. Technically you are in violation of the rules, but one would think that the same could be said for Lift, Clean and Place in a Pro event. They do it so the player is not penalized when they are in the fairway from undo mud, so we do it in the winter when the fairways can not be worked on.

If it is OK for Judge Smales its OK for me