Oh NO! She's gonna get hammered for this one!

LoJo · 07-02-2006, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by cleo

I'm not an expert about the rules, I pretty much play "winter rules".

So, then why are you giving your opinions about the Rules of Golf?

LoJo · 07-02-2006, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by cleo
I'm not an expert about the rules, I pretty much play "winter rules".

Originally Posted by 4putt

don't we all? ...

No, we don't "all."

DJGOLFER59 · 07-02-2006, 10:52 PM

it does seem like it was hit twice, however, the "slow-motion" replay really wasnt all that slow, and if you see the amount of grass she hit that came flying out, isnt it possible that it flew up under the ball causing it to change directions?

LoJo · 07-02-2006, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by DJGOLFER59

it does seem like it was hit twice, however, the "slow-motion" replay really wasnt all that slow, and if you see the amount of grass she hit that came flying out, isnt it possible that it flew up under the ball causing it to change directions?

DJ....I agree that the video evidence seems to show that JJ's stroke hit the ball twice; but, yes, it is possible that the "divot" or the flying grass moved the ball.

Probably, that's what she felt happened.

This was a really interesting issue with the Rules because, usually, the "call" goes with the player, which is what originally happened in this case....they didn't penalize her because she claimed she'd hit it only once, and they went with JJ's belief that she'd hit the ball only once.

But, then, the Committee (after further review of the video) decided she was wrong and reversed the ruling. Hmmm.

Very interesting.

I'm sure it affected her subsequent play.

DJGOLFER59 · 07-03-2006, 12:34 AM

lojo, i dont understand the exact outcome the officials came to. how can she have signed her scorecard with no penalty, and then have the officials reverse the score? i thought that once a scorecard is signed thats it. and even more puzzling to me is that they did it mid-round. if it was after the 3rd on a normal situation maybe i could understand but since she was already starting her 4th, i just didnt know they could do that.

course like i said im unclear on what they came up with so maybe im misunderstood.

ajraymond · 07-03-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by DJGOLFER59

lojo, i dont understand the exact outcome the officials came to. how can she have signed her scorecard with no penalty, and then have the officials reverse the score? i thought that once a scorecard is signed thats it. and even more puzzling to me is that they did it mid-round. if it was after the 3rd on a normal situation maybe i could understand but since she was already starting her 4th, i just didnt know they could do that.

course like i said im unclear on what they came up with so maybe im misunderstood.

She clearly hit the ball twice and trying to deny it was ludicrous. I like Jeong Jang but she better start doing some damage control because this was an obvious miscalculation on her part and people are right when they talk about people getting labelled.

LoJo · 07-03-2006, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by DJGOLFER59

lojo, i dont understand the exact outcome the officials came to. how can she have signed her scorecard with no penalty, and then have the officials reverse the score? i thought that once a scorecard is signed thats it. and even more puzzling to me is that they did it mid-round. if it was after the 3rd on a normal situation maybe i could understand but since she was already starting her 4th, i just didnt know they could do that.

course like i said im unclear on what they came up with so maybe im misunderstood.

DJ.... Initially, after the third round and before she'd signed her scorecard, the USGA officials and JJ went over the videotape, but she felt she had hit the ball only once. In the absence of conclusive evidence, they accepted her call on what happened, and cleared her of any violation, and she signed her card.

Then, after the fourth round had begun, the USGA further looked at the tape and believed that JJ was in error and she had, in fact, hit the ball twice.

She was not DQ'ed for signing an incorrect scorecard because she had proceed based on the initial USGA official ruling.

Of course, they had to tell JJ during the 4th round that they had reversed their decision because she had the right to know asap. I believe it was a bit unusual because of the players having to go right out to start the 4th round within about 30 minutes of finishing the 3rd round.

I don't believe anyone will accuse JJ of trying to cheat. She thought she'd hit the ball only once. She was wrong. I don't think any "damage control" is called for.

4putt · 07-03-2006, 01:28 PM

DJ, normally a player who signs the wrong scorecard is disqualified. But Rules of Golf (34-3/7) allows the rules officials to reverse a ruling prior to completion of play upon further evidence. Since the rules officials cleared JJ of the incident she was not disqualified.

Here's exerpts of the Decisions...

34-3/7 Player Proceeds on Basis of Ruling; Subsequent Facts Prove Ruling to Be Incorrect

Q. A player believes his ball in play may have moved after he addressed it and asks for a ruling from a member of the Committee. Based on the evidence available at the time, the member of the Committee determines that the ball did not move and instructs the player to play the ball as it lies without penalty. After the player plays, the member of the Committee becomes aware of evidence that indicates that the ball had in fact moved. What is the ruling?

A. As the ball moved after the player had addressed it, he was required to replace the ball with a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2b. When he failed to do so, he played from a wrong place. As he did so at the instruction of a member of the Committee, he does not incur the general penalty under Rule 18 for playing from a wrong place. However, he does incur the penalty stroke under Rule 18-2b as the ball had moved after address before the ruling from the member of the Committee. The player must continue with the ball played from the wrong place. (New)

34-3/8 Player Proceeds on Basis of Ruling; Player’s Version of Facts Subsequently Found to Be Incorrect

Q. A player’s ball in play moves, and the player asks for a ruling from a member of the Committee. When asked, the player informs the member of the Committee that he had not addressed the ball. As the player had done nothing else to cause the ball to move, the member of the Committee instructs the player to play the ball from its new location without penalty. After the player plays, the member of the Committee becomes aware that the player had in fact addressed the ball. What is the ruling?

A. As the ball moved after the player had addressed it, he was required to replace the ball with a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2b. When he failed to do so, he played from a wrong place and loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under Rule 18.
The player must continue with the ball played from the wrong place except that, in stroke play, if a serious breach is involved and the player has not yet played from the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the round, before the player leaves the putting green, the member of the Committee must require the player to cancel the stroke made with the ball from the wrong place and any subsequent strokes and play from the original location of the ball.
The imposition of the general penalty in this situation is different from the ruling in Decision 34-3/7 in that, in this case, the player provided the incorrect information that led to the incorrect ruling. The player is responsible for providing the correct facts to the member of the Committee and is subject to penalty under the applicable Rule if his incorrect version of the facts led to his playing from a wrong place. (New)

4putt · 07-03-2006, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by cleo

I'm not an expert about the rules, I pretty much play "winter rules".

Originally Posted by 4putt

don't we all? ...i think 99% of golfers would get disqualified about 99% of the time if we played the u.s. open...

Originally Posted by LoJo

No, we don't "all."

You do know what we meant, right?

Well, LoJo, I guess you're in that 1% I mentioned...My apologies.

I don't claim to be an expert on the rules either, nor that I know the rules better than you, BUT I do know the rules and try to abide by them - whenever possible.

Let face it though. If you played golf like the girls on the LPGA do on a public course on a weekend, no less, the marshall WILL kick you off the course!!! Walk back to a tee box to hit a provisional???? You'll get your teeth knocked out! We have no walking rules officials, no spotters, no galleries running after your ball into the woods......We all do our best - "winter rules."

.

ncharles78 · 07-03-2006, 02:59 PM

I disagree with ajraymond. I don't think it was really clear. If it was "really" clear they wouldn't have had to view the tape so many times. I watched them replay it at least four times on TV and couldn't swear it was hit twice, but the folks on TV kept saying yes, so after awhile you think you're wrong and they are right. I think JJ really felt she only hit it once. And with all that grass and crap flying who can really be sure. Just last week JJ & her family did something really nice for the Korean vets --- now she has a cloud over her head due to speculation. Why do we assume the worst -- that everyone is dishonest and trying to get away with something? JJ is a great player she doesn't need to cheat to win.

07-02-2006, 09:36 PM	#11
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by cleo I'm not an expert about the rules, I pretty much play "winter rules". So, then why are you giving your opinions about the Rules of Golf?

07-02-2006, 09:56 PM	#12
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by cleo I'm not an expert about the rules, I pretty much play "winter rules". Originally Posted by 4putt don't we all? ... No, we don't "all."

07-02-2006, 11:57 PM	#14
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by DJGOLFER59 it does seem like it was hit twice, however, the "slow-motion" replay really wasnt all that slow, and if you see the amount of grass she hit that came flying out, isnt it possible that it flew up under the ball causing it to change directions? DJ....I agree that the video evidence seems to show that JJ's stroke hit the ball twice; but, yes, it is possible that the "divot" or the flying grass moved the ball. Probably, that's what she felt happened. This was a really interesting issue with the Rules because, usually, the "call" goes with the player, which is what originally happened in this case....they didn't penalize her because she claimed she'd hit it only once, and they went with JJ's belief that she'd hit the ball only once. But, then, the Committee (after further review of the video) decided she was wrong and reversed the ruling. Hmmm. Very interesting. I'm sure it affected her subsequent play.

07-03-2006, 11:13 AM	#16
ajraymond Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 656	Originally Posted by DJGOLFER59 lojo, i dont understand the exact outcome the officials came to. how can she have signed her scorecard with no penalty, and then have the officials reverse the score? i thought that once a scorecard is signed thats it. and even more puzzling to me is that they did it mid-round. if it was after the 3rd on a normal situation maybe i could understand but since she was already starting her 4th, i just didnt know they could do that. course like i said im unclear on what they came up with so maybe im misunderstood. She clearly hit the ball twice and trying to deny it was ludicrous. I like Jeong Jang but she better start doing some damage control because this was an obvious miscalculation on her part and people are right when they talk about people getting labelled. Last edited by ajraymond; 07-03-2006 at 01:18 PM.

07-03-2006, 01:13 PM	#17
LoJo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Golf Course Posts: 2,217 Images: 1	Originally Posted by DJGOLFER59 lojo, i dont understand the exact outcome the officials came to. how can she have signed her scorecard with no penalty, and then have the officials reverse the score? i thought that once a scorecard is signed thats it. and even more puzzling to me is that they did it mid-round. if it was after the 3rd on a normal situation maybe i could understand but since she was already starting her 4th, i just didnt know they could do that. course like i said im unclear on what they came up with so maybe im misunderstood. DJ.... Initially, after the third round and before she'd signed her scorecard, the USGA officials and JJ went over the videotape, but she felt she had hit the ball only once. In the absence of conclusive evidence, they accepted her call on what happened, and cleared her of any violation, and she signed her card. Then, after the fourth round had begun, the USGA further looked at the tape and believed that JJ was in error and she had, in fact, hit the ball twice. She was not DQ'ed for signing an incorrect scorecard because she had proceed based on the initial USGA official ruling. Of course, they had to tell JJ during the 4th round that they had reversed their decision because she had the right to know asap. I believe it was a bit unusual because of the players having to go right out to start the 4th round within about 30 minutes of finishing the 3rd round. I don't believe anyone will accuse JJ of trying to cheat. She thought she'd hit the ball only once. She was wrong. I don't think any "damage control" is called for.

07-02-2006, 10:52 PM	#13
DJGOLFER59 Contest Statistician Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,685	it does seem like it was hit twice, however, the "slow-motion" replay really wasnt all that slow, and if you see the amount of grass she hit that came flying out, isnt it possible that it flew up under the ball causing it to change directions?

07-03-2006, 12:34 AM	#15
DJGOLFER59 Contest Statistician Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,685	lojo, i dont understand the exact outcome the officials came to. how can she have signed her scorecard with no penalty, and then have the officials reverse the score? i thought that once a scorecard is signed thats it. and even more puzzling to me is that they did it mid-round. if it was after the 3rd on a normal situation maybe i could understand but since she was already starting her 4th, i just didnt know they could do that. course like i said im unclear on what they came up with so maybe im misunderstood.

07-03-2006, 01:28 PM	#18
4putt Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 428	DJ, normally a player who signs the wrong scorecard is disqualified. But Rules of Golf (34-3/7) allows the rules officials to reverse a ruling prior to completion of play upon further evidence. Since the rules officials cleared JJ of the incident she was not disqualified. Here's exerpts of the Decisions... 34-3/7 Player Proceeds on Basis of Ruling; Subsequent Facts Prove Ruling to Be Incorrect Q. A player believes his ball in play may have moved after he addressed it and asks for a ruling from a member of the Committee. Based on the evidence available at the time, the member of the Committee determines that the ball did not move and instructs the player to play the ball as it lies without penalty. After the player plays, the member of the Committee becomes aware of evidence that indicates that the ball had in fact moved. What is the ruling? A. As the ball moved after the player had addressed it, he was required to replace the ball with a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2b. When he failed to do so, he played from a wrong place. As he did so at the instruction of a member of the Committee, he does not incur the general penalty under Rule 18 for playing from a wrong place. However, he does incur the penalty stroke under Rule 18-2b as the ball had moved after address before the ruling from the member of the Committee. The player must continue with the ball played from the wrong place. (New) 34-3/8 Player Proceeds on Basis of Ruling; Player’s Version of Facts Subsequently Found to Be Incorrect Q. A player’s ball in play moves, and the player asks for a ruling from a member of the Committee. When asked, the player informs the member of the Committee that he had not addressed the ball. As the player had done nothing else to cause the ball to move, the member of the Committee instructs the player to play the ball from its new location without penalty. After the player plays, the member of the Committee becomes aware that the player had in fact addressed the ball. What is the ruling? A. As the ball moved after the player had addressed it, he was required to replace the ball with a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2b. When he failed to do so, he played from a wrong place and loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under Rule 18. The player must continue with the ball played from the wrong place except that, in stroke play, if a serious breach is involved and the player has not yet played from the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the round, before the player leaves the putting green, the member of the Committee must require the player to cancel the stroke made with the ball from the wrong place and any subsequent strokes and play from the original location of the ball. The imposition of the general penalty in this situation is different from the ruling in Decision 34-3/7 in that, in this case, the player provided the incorrect information that led to the incorrect ruling. The player is responsible for providing the correct facts to the member of the Committee and is subject to penalty under the applicable Rule if his incorrect version of the facts led to his playing from a wrong place. (New)

07-03-2006, 01:38 PM	#19
4putt Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 428	Originally Posted by cleo I'm not an expert about the rules, I pretty much play "winter rules". Originally Posted by 4putt don't we all? ...i think 99% of golfers would get disqualified about 99% of the time if we played the u.s. open... Originally Posted by LoJo No, we don't "all." You do know what we meant, right? Well, LoJo, I guess you're in that 1% I mentioned...My apologies. I don't claim to be an expert on the rules either, nor that I know the rules better than you, BUT I do know the rules and try to abide by them - whenever possible. Let face it though. If you played golf like the girls on the LPGA do on a public course on a weekend, no less, the marshall WILL kick you off the course!!! Walk back to a tee box to hit a provisional???? You'll get your teeth knocked out! We have no walking rules officials, no spotters, no galleries running after your ball into the woods......We all do our best - "winter rules." . Last edited by 4putt; 07-03-2006 at 03:23 PM.

07-03-2006, 02:59 PM	#20
ncharles78 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: NY, NY Posts: 60	I disagree with ajraymond. I don't think it was really clear. If it was "really" clear they wouldn't have had to view the tape so many times. I watched them replay it at least four times on TV and couldn't swear it was hit twice, but the folks on TV kept saying yes, so after awhile you think you're wrong and they are right. I think JJ really felt she only hit it once. And with all that grass and crap flying who can really be sure. Just last week JJ & her family did something really nice for the Korean vets --- now she has a cloud over her head due to speculation. Why do we assume the worst -- that everyone is dishonest and trying to get away with something? JJ is a great player she doesn't need to cheat to win.

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