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Old 10-06-2011, 11:13 AM   #1
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Technology and Employment

I didn't want to start an argument in the thread specifically related Steve Jobs demise, so I have put my response to DB here.

I don't think you can say Jobs was partly responsible for the lack of jobs, indicating the whole unemployment problem is his fault. Most businesses use Microsoft products, not Apple, as do most individuals and most email is still Outlook based. While Mac is the choice of CAD and graphic designers, I'm not sure you can say it's cut employment numbers without giving some numbers.

I think technology advances in general are contributory, more so in manufacturing than in administration. Certainly computers have slashed employment on the shop floor of car manufacturing, was Steve Jobs responsible for that or stockholders?
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:10 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by heddwyn View Post
I didn't want to start an argument in the thread specifically related Steve Jobs demise, so I have put my response to DB here.

I don't think you can say Jobs was partly responsible for the lack of jobs, indicating the whole unemployment problem is his fault. Most businesses use Microsoft products, not Apple, as do most individuals and most email is still Outlook based. While Mac is the choice of CAD and graphic designers, I'm not sure you can say it's cut employment numbers without giving some numbers.

I think technology advances in general are contributory, more so in manufacturing than in administration. Certainly computers have slashed employment on the shop floor of car manufacturing, was Steve Jobs responsible for that or stockholders?
As I gave as an example in the other thread about Steve Jobs.

Before the automobile there was the Horse and Buggy. It employed a certain amount of people. The automobile replaced the horse and buggy ultimately employing more people then the horse and buggy ever did and creating other industries and growth. Certainly a dramatic shift in transporation technology.

Prior to the electric light, the Gas Lamp Lighter had a good deal. Walking around the street at night on stilts lighting the gas lamps. It still did not do a great job lighting the streets.

Now comes the electric street light. Surely putting those Lamp Lighters out of business. However more jobs were created in the production of electric street lights, the building of power plants. Then the mass spread of electricity to homes and business occurs. The new jobs for electricians, helpers, electrical device makers. It is up to the Lamp Lighter to make sure that he can change with the times, and become an electrician.

If it was today we would protect the Lamp Lighter at all costs, stifle the electric light, while the rest of the world moves on to the electric light, leaving us in the murky dark of a gas lamp.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:25 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by xman5 View Post
As I gave as an example in the other thread about Steve Jobs.

Before the automobile there was the Horse and Buggy. It employed a certain amount of people. The automobile replaced the horse and buggy ultimately employing more people then the horse and buggy ever did and creating other industries and growth. Certainly a dramatic shift in transporation technology.

Prior to the electric light, the Gas Lamp Lighter had a good deal. Walking around the street at night on stilts lighting the gas lamps. It still did not do a great job lighting the streets.

Now comes the electric street light. Surely putting those Lamp Lighters out of business. However more jobs were created in the production of electric street lights, the building of power plants. Then the mass spread of electricity to homes and business occurs. The new jobs for electricians, helpers, electrical device makers. It is up to the Lamp Lighter to make sure that he can change with the times, and become an electrician.

If it was today we would protect the Lamp Lighter at all costs, stifle the electric light, while the rest of the world moves on to the electric light, leaving us in the murky dark of a gas lamp.
Xman you are absolutely correct except now the jobs are not in this country..
Will my Grandchildren ever live long enough to see the rest of the world catch up.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:34 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by xman5 View Post
As I gave as an example in the other thread about Steve Jobs.

Before the automobile there was the Horse and Buggy. It employed a certain amount of people. The automobile replaced the horse and buggy ultimately employing more people then the horse and buggy ever did and creating other industries and growth. Certainly a dramatic shift in transporation technology.

Prior to the electric light, the Gas Lamp Lighter had a good deal. Walking around the street at night on stilts lighting the gas lamps. It still did not do a great job lighting the streets.

Now comes the electric street light. Surely putting those Lamp Lighters out of business. However more jobs were created in the production of electric street lights, the building of power plants. Then the mass spread of electricity to homes and business occurs. The new jobs for electricians, helpers, electrical device makers. It is up to the Lamp Lighter to make sure that he can change with the times, and become an electrician.

If it was today we would protect the Lamp Lighter at all costs, stifle the electric light, while the rest of the world moves on to the electric light, leaving us in the murky dark of a gas lamp.
I'm not knocking off advance technology all together...there are some that are good and there are some that are bad. Just like food...food is good for you but, if you eat excessively, it's bad. Sex is fun and good, but if you do it day and night and night and day, it's bad for you health!
I have friend who used to have a successful Travel Agency business and employed lots of people in the 80's and 90's. Then come along computers where people can now book their flights by themselves and no need for travels agencies to help them. There goes his business. It went broke replaced by computers. Go to the super markets...hardly any cashiers anymore because people can scan their own groceries. And I'm even counting those who can shop on line. Now-a-days, you don't even need to get out of your house to get what you want because it's all done for you by computers. Steve Jobs invented all those gadgets that made people lazy. IPads, Iphones, etc. etc. In other words, there should be a regulations or limitations to a certain extent on what technology is good for.
Just like what Edmund Hillary said when asked why he climbed Mt. Everest, "Because it's there." People use computer because it's there.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:46 PM   #5
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Actually, the quote was by George Mallory, not Hillary, when asked why he wanted to climb Mt Everest.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by heddwyn View Post
Actually, the quote was by George Mallory, not Hillary, when asked why he wanted to climb Mt Everest.
My bad. Their names sound the same, so, I confused the two. I know Edmund Hillary was the first to climb Mt. Everest...in record anyway. There were probably some natives that climb it before, just not being recorded. Just like Columbus discovering America. The reason why the Cherokee Indian set sail to discover Italy.
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:02 PM   #7
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A question, DB. Do you use a computer in your shopping centre design business?

Your initial post suggested that Jobs was partly responsible for unemployment, in your post here you've said technology created jobs, so which is it?

Would you not agree that stockholders have driven a lot of unemployment by their desire for higher dividends?

I normally do use self serve check outs, mainly because I don't have to stand in line for hours while the people in front of me f^rt around, and often because I have few items and I can get out of the place more quickly. Given there are always one or two staff attached to the self serves because they are often requiring some override, it hasn't significantly reduced the staff - at least at my local store.

I'm not sure about the US, but one downside in the store area is the loss of the 'corner shop'. StJ will know what I'm talking about. Very much a social place as well as having the 'bits and pieces' you needed. Bread and milk, go to the corner store, now you find yourself buying it from somewhere selling gas. Bulk buying and cheaper prices have contributed more to them closing.

I'd agree people, including me, have become more reliant on computers than we probably should, and we all know a check out 'chick' can't add two numbers together without the cash register. I hope there is someone left when there is power rationing and we have to go back to doing things manually.

I find it interesting, DB, that in a post in another thread you were saying how what 'backward old fogies' a lot of us on here are, yet now you seem to be wanting to go backwards yourself when it comes to technology!
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:11 PM   #8
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An area where computers have been detrimental is in the social area. How many kids these days sit in front of a computer instead of getting outside to play, er, golf? Too many. However, we are considered social if we use Facebook, Twitter or a phone to text someone.

Talking about kids, is the current idea of using iPads a bad thing? It gives teacher and student access to a far greater range of material than the school library ever could. No heavy books to lug around either! I think this IS a good use of Mr Jobs legacy to technology.
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:30 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by heddwyn View Post
A question, DB. Do you use a computer in your shopping centre design business?
Yes...a bunch of them: CAD(Computer Aided Drafting); GIS(Geographic Information System) for mapping; Synercom Informap Operation System, and some others. But like I said, some are good and some are bad. I remember when I was a kid, before computers were used, my grandfather had to hire a lot of drafters, engineering aids and technicians to do some of the jobs. Now, they hardly exist anymore because one computer can do what 5 to 6 people used to do.

Originally Posted by heddwyn
Your initial post suggested that Jobs was partly responsible for unemployment, in your post here you've said technology created jobs, so which is it?
I said "partly" because some of his inventions caused people to lose their jobs and also said, some advance technology is good in creating jobs...like those X-man cited. Again, just like food...you have to use them moderately.

Originally Posted by heddwyn
Would you not agree that stockholders have driven a lot of unemployment by their desire for higher dividends?
Not sure about that...so no comment.

Originally Posted by heddwyn
I normally do use self serve check outs, mainly because I don't have to stand in line for hours while the people in front of me f^rt around, and often because I have few items and I can get out of the place more quickly. Given there are always one or two staff attached to the self serves because they are often requiring some override, it hasn't significantly reduced the staff - at least at my local store.

I'm not sure about the US, but one downside in the store area is the loss of the 'corner shop'. StJ will know what I'm talking about. Very much a social place as well as having the 'bits and pieces' you needed. Bread and milk, go to the corner store, now you find yourself buying it from somewhere selling gas. Bulk buying and cheaper prices have contributed more to them closing.

I'd agree people, including me, have become more reliant on computers than we probably should, and we all know a check out 'chick' can't add two numbers together without the cash register. I hope there is someone left when there is power rationing and we have to go back to doing things manually.

I find it interesting, DB, that in a post in another thread you were saying how what 'backward old fogies' a lot of us on here are, yet now you seem to be wanting to go backwards yourself when it comes to technology!
I was speaking for myself as an editorial comment and wasn't speaking for anyone else. I believe in certain moderation. But I guess you misunderstood my point.
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Old 10-06-2011, 03:35 PM   #10
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I gave my response to your post in the other thread. Since this thread is devoted to the passing of your hero, Mr. Steve Jobs, let's take our arguments in another thread. Thanks Heddwyn for starting that thread

Ok, I moved my response here.

Funny thing is that he is not really my hero.

I admire what he has created and for having the vision to see thing that now we take for granted.

Take your whole music library with you? Why didn't we think of that? Thats so Simple yet Genius, and to make it happen.

Lets not forget Pixar. They created a whole new kind of animation that we now take for granted and wonder how far we can go.

So for doing that I don't mind that he became a Billionaire. At least he created things that benifited people and enriched there lives, created whole industries and did more good then harm as opposed to others like Hedge Fund managers that create nothing and manipulate what others have or have not.

Actually I am more in tune with Steve Wozniak because he was more of the engineer in the begining of Apple. It's a great story.

I actually am not a big user of Apple products. I used to have and Original I Phone but lost it and upgraded to something else because my new phone was much cheaper.

The only other item I have is and old ipod that I still use.
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