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ctmurray 11-27-2009 10:53 PM

Dubai collapse affects Tiger's rep
 
Tiger Woods' pride dented as Dubai course hits bunker | Sport | The Guardian

This link is an article about Tiger's first designed golf course being affected by the Dubai collapse:

Quote:

Tiger Woods (the golfer) has become a byword for unfettered success but there is now a little less lustre about Tiger Woods (the brand name) after it emerged yesterday that the first golf course in the world bearing the world No1's name has fallen victim to the economic problems that have wrought havoc in parts of the Middle East.Sources in Dubai confirmed that Tiger Woods Dubai‚ a multi-million dollar development in the desert with a Woods-designed golf course at its heart, will now not open this autumn and has been pushed back to 2010 or even later, amid claims that the real estate element of the project – 22 "palaces"‚ 75 "mansions"‚ 100 "luxury villas" and a high-end hotel – will be delayed indefinitely.

ctmurray 11-27-2009 10:55 PM

Another funny/scary link about this crisis. YouTube video showing a tour of Dubai including existing and planned developments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD-LjX_K9Cg

Buzzer 11-28-2009 11:51 AM

Gee! Except for the camel it looks just like Warren, Ohio in the summer.....:ani_thumbup:

Viva Annika

MarinePaul 11-28-2009 12:27 PM

Buzzer, why didn't you tell me when you were in town?

Buzzer 11-28-2009 01:43 PM

Sorry MP.....I was too busy looking for the camel......:ani_blink:

Viva Annika

ctmurray 11-28-2009 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzer (Post 96884)
Gee! Except for the camel it looks just like Warren, Ohio in the summer.....:ani_thumbup:

Viva Annika

I guess I can cross Warren off my bucket list of places to visit....

MarinePaul 11-28-2009 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctmurray (Post 96888)
I guess I can cross Warren off my bucket list of places to visit....


Trust me, that would be a good idea. Or, if you do decide to visit, get yourself a bullet- proof vest, kevlar helmet, and a couple security guards. You won't find many tourists here, unless they're just passing through.

dangerbob 11-28-2009 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzer (Post 96887)
Sorry MP.....I was too busy looking for the camel......:ani_blink:

Viva Annika

This is the only kind of camel you'll be a able to find in Warren, Ohio...with the Marine on it!
http://tian.greens.org/TransDimensio...idingCamel.jpg

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/s...cons/Laugh.gif

MarinePaul 11-28-2009 10:39 PM

DB, if that were really me, that camel would have a couple of machine guns, a granade launcher and a rocket or two attached.

Rusty 11-29-2009 08:27 PM

Dubai is finally financially bankrupt – but it has been morally bankrupt all along. The idea that Dubai is an oasis of freedom on the Arabian peninsular is one of the great lies of our time. Yes, it has Starbucks and Dunkin' Donuts and the Gucci styles, but beneath these accouterments, there is a dictatorship built by slaves.


If you go there with your eyes open – as I did earlier this year– the truth is hidden in plain view. The tour books and the bragging Emiratis will tell you the city was built by Sheikh Mohammed, the country's hereditary ruler.

It is untrue. The people who really built the city can be seen in long chain-gangs by the side of the road, or toiling all day at the top of the tallest buildings in the world, in heat that Westerners are told not to stay in for more than 10 minutes. They were conned into coming, and trapped into staying.

In their home country – Bangladesh or the Philippines or India – these workers are told they can earn a fortune in Dubai if they pay a large upfront fee. When they arrive, their passports are taken from them, and they are told their wages are a tenth of the rate they were promised.
They end up working in extremely dangerous conditions for years, just to pay back their initial debt. They are ringed-off in filthy tent-cities outside Dubai, where they sleep in weeping heat, next to open sewage. They have no way to go home. And if they try to strike for better conditions, they are beaten by the police.

I met so many men in this position I stopped counting, just as the embassies were told to stop counting how many workers die in these conditions every year after they figured it topped more than 1,000 among the Indians alone.

Human Rights Watch calls this system "slavery." Yet the Westerners who have flocked to Dubai brag that they "love" the city, because they don't have to pay any taxes, and they have domestic slaves to do all the hard work. They train themselves not to see the pain.

But Dubai's bankruptcy does not end there: it is ecologically bust. This is a city built in the burning desert, where everything shrivels up and blows away if it is not kept artificially cold all the time. That's why it has the highest per capita carbon emissions on earth – some 250 percent higher even than America's. The city has to ship in desalinated water – which is more costly than oil. When it runs out of cash, it will run out of water.
Today Dubai will be bailed out by the United Arab Emirates, the oil-rich country of which it is only one state. But the oil will not last forever. More importantly, there is no Bank of Morality that could provide a bailout for this sinister mirage in the desert.

Johann Hari: Dubai Has Always Been Bankrupt -- Morally and Environmentally

ctmurray 11-29-2009 08:50 PM

Over the years we have seen stories/ expose's about the conditions. Very sad for these workers.

MarinePaul 11-29-2009 08:58 PM

Rusty, an interesting article. I have a client who did some business in Dubai, and he has some horror stories about dealing with the "government" there. He also mentioned the chain gangs. Really a sad state of affairs.

LoJo 11-29-2009 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96899)
Rusty, an interesting article. I have a client who did some business in Dubai, and he has some horror stories about dealing with the "government" there. He also mentioned the chain gangs. Really a sad state of affairs.

Yeah...kinda like what we have in the US with all the illegal slaves picking citrus in Florida and tobacco in NC. Just look the other way and it doesn't exist.

ctmurray 11-29-2009 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoJo (Post 96901)
Yeah...kinda like what we have in the US with all the illegal slaves picking citrus in Florida and tobacco in NC. Just look the other way and it doesn't exist.

I thought these people were illegal workers but not held in slavery as described about Dubai? Are they brought here under the same false pretenses? I thought they worked their way here (possibly paying mules big money to come) and then were hired (by employers who look the other way about their work status). In Dubai the workers have their passports taken away until they pay off the advance. Here I think they can leave if they want and go back (although they might not have much money). But honestly I did not (do not) think the slavery aspect is common here. But am open to links to prove me wrong.

MarinePaul 11-29-2009 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoJo (Post 96901)
Yeah...kinda like what we have in the US with all the illegal slaves picking citrus in Florida and tobacco in NC. Just look the other way and it doesn't exist.


Hardly "slaves." Personally, the word "illegal" to me means that when they're discovered, they should be sent home. The situation in Dubai is in no way similar.

LoJo 11-30-2009 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96909)
Hardly "slaves." Personally, the word "illegal" to me means that when they're discovered, they should be sent home. The situation in Dubai is in no way similar.

Hardly slaves? Ha!

Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW)

Keep in mind that the cases cited were those prosecuted...many are not.

Migrant farm workers, both documented and undocumented, suffer terrible abuses similar to the Dubai workers.

It's all about the $$ whether it's here in the U.S. or elsewhere.

MarinePaul 11-30-2009 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoJo (Post 96914)
Hardly slaves? Ha!

Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW)

Keep in mind that the cases cited were those prosecuted...many are not.

Migrant farm workers, both documented and undocumented, suffer terrible abuses similar to the Dubai workers.

It's all about the $$ whether it's here in the U.S. or elsewhere.

So, I suppose we confiscate the passports the "undocumented" don't have and force them to stay? The road runs both north AND south.

xman5 11-30-2009 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoJo (Post 96914)
Hardly slaves? Ha!

Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW)

Keep in mind that the cases cited were those prosecuted...many are not.

Migrant farm workers, both documented and undocumented, suffer terrible abuses similar to the Dubai workers.

It's all about the $$ whether it's here in the U.S. or elsewhere.

The difference is that what was done here was done by individuals and illegal and those responsible were convicted.

What is done in Dubai is sponsered by the Gov't.

I wouldn't go to Dubai if my life depended on it. They can rot.

Blue 11-30-2009 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96924)
So, I suppose we confiscate the passports the "undocumented" don't have and force them to stay? The road runs both north AND south.

Did you read the article LoJo posted?

A few excerpts:
"... captive workers are held against their will by their employers through threats and, all too often, the actual use of violence -- including beatings, shootings, and pistol-whippings.... The employers were charged with beating workers who were unwilling to work or who attempted to leave their employ picking tomatoes, holding their workers in debt, and chaining and locking workers inside u-haul trucks as punishment ... workers, mostly indigenous Mexicans and Guatemalans, were forced to work 10-12 hour days, 6 days per week, for as little as $20 per week, under the watch of armed guards. Those who attempted escape were assaulted, pistol-whipped, and even shot."

It's difficult to get on the road heading south when you're chained inside a truck, beaten or shot at if you attempt to leave.

xman5 11-30-2009 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 96930)
Did you read the article LoJo posted?

A few excerpts:
"... captive workers are held against their will by their employers through threats and, all too often, the actual use of violence -- including beatings, shootings, and pistol-whippings.... The employers were charged with beating workers who were unwilling to work or who attempted to leave their employ picking tomatoes, holding their workers in debt, and chaining and locking workers inside u-haul trucks as punishment ... workers, mostly indigenous Mexicans and Guatemalans, were forced to work 10-12 hour days, 6 days per week, for as little as $20 per week, under the watch of armed guards. Those who attempted escape were assaulted, pistol-whipped, and even shot."

It's difficult to get on the road heading south when you're chained inside a truck, beaten or shot at if you attempt to leave.



By turning our back and letting illegal aliens stream accross the border we have created the environment for this to happen. But make no mistake this is not the policy of our country. These are acts done by indivduals and not the state, often exploting the same groups that they are from.

Thats why we need immigration reform so that these people can not be expoloited by these criminals. If we had real reform where these workers can be documented and access controlled these problems could be reduced greatly. Instead we stick out head in the sand, as the Congress is too weak to act on anything that might be difficult or to offend anyone and possible lose a vote. So nothing is done.

Blue 11-30-2009 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xman5 (Post 96934)
By turning our back and letting illegal aliens stream accross the border we have created the environment for this to happen. But make no mistake this is not the policy of our country. These are acts done by indivduals and not the state, often exploting the same groups that they are from.

Thats why we need immigration reform so that these people can not be expoloited by these criminals. If we had real reform where these workers can be documented and access controlled these problems could be reduced greatly. Instead we stick out head in the sand, as the Congress is too weak to act on anything that might be difficult or to offend anyone and possible lose a vote. So nothing is done.

I don't think you don't mean to say this, but it sounds like you're saying they got what they deserved when the workers were tortured and killed.

I agree that the immigrant problem is completely out of control in this country. Politicians on the right and the left are catering to the rapidly growing immigrant populations in their districts and are afraid to enact tough laws.

However, it still doesn't mean, as MP stated, that these workers are free to just get on the road and head back south.

MarinePaul 11-30-2009 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 96930)
Did you read the article LoJo posted?

A few excerpts:
"... captive workers are held against their will by their employers through threats and, all too often, the actual use of violence -- including beatings, shootings, and pistol-whippings.... The employers were charged with beating workers who were unwilling to work or who attempted to leave their employ picking tomatoes, holding their workers in debt, and chaining and locking workers inside u-haul trucks as punishment ... workers, mostly indigenous Mexicans and Guatemalans, were forced to work 10-12 hour days, 6 days per week, for as little as $20 per week, under the watch of armed guards. Those who attempted escape were assaulted, pistol-whipped, and even shot."
It's difficult to get on the road heading south when you're chained inside a truck, beaten or shot at if you attempt to leave.


Yes, I read it. They got themselves here illegally, so I have no sympathy.

xman5 11-30-2009 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 96935)
I don't think you don't mean to say this, but it sounds like you're saying they got what they deserved when the workers were tortured and killed.

I agree that the immigrant problem is completely out of control in this country. Politicians on the right and the left are catering to the rapidly growing immigrant populations in their districts and are afraid to enact tough laws.

However, it still doesn't mean, as MP stated, that these workers are free to just get on the road and head back south.

No what I am saying is that these people are being exploited by criminals and orginized crime, not the Gov't or the Law abbiding people of this country. It is not the fault of the people being exploited.

If we had real immigration reform, the workers can be documented and legally employed and the flow of people can be controlled. It would go along way to preventing these types of situations from occuring because the workers will have legal status and can go to the authorities without fear.

It is the undocumented, illegal status or whatever term you want to use that is the problem that allows them to be exploited. And that does not seem to be changing any time soon.

xman5 11-30-2009 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96940)
Yes, I read it. They got themselves here illegally, so I have no sympathy.

But we are allowing them to come here by doing nothing to prevent it.

Also, as human beings they have rights that go beyond those of gov'ts. There is a clear line as to what you can do to another person, independent as to how or what side of a border they are on.

Blue 11-30-2009 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96940)
Yes, I read it. They got themselves here illegally, so I have no sympathy.

So you're saying that just because someone broke immigration laws in crossing national border, they have the right to be tortured, held captive and shot? Isn't that just a bit harsh?

NTB 11-30-2009 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 96944)
So you're saying that just because someone broke immigration laws in crossing national border, they have the right to be tortured, held captive and shot? Isn't that just a bit harsh?

It's sorta like buyer beware you usually know going in what the penalties
are in the country you are sneaking into.
In Dubai it's harsh here we will treat you like your special and give you
everything free. I don't blame illegals for coming into the USA.
Dubai it must be pretty stupid.

dangerbob 11-30-2009 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xman5 (Post 96927)
The difference is that what was done here was done by individuals and illegal and those responsible were convicted.

What is done in Dubai is sponsered by the Gov't.

I wouldn't go to Dubai if my life depended on it. They can rot.

Don't believe everything you read. Those are all propagandas. That's what American journalists are good for...writings all good things about America and and knocking off all other countries. You just have to travel to those places to judge for yourself what's going on.
If you go to those third world countries all you read about the U.S. are how powerful and rich this country is. They never write about those panhandlers in almost every corners of big cities. You'll never read about the skid rows, and all murders that's happenings here. But when they write or report about other countries, all they write about are the bad things that happens in those countries. Seldom they write about the good things. Then you believe it.
Dubai and other rich Mid-Eastern countries or cities have help many people from third world countries by employing them.(Not slave them as you read.) I have many relatives on my grandmother's side from the Philippines that are working in the Middle East and they are all happy about it. Unlike the U.S., they don't have strict immigration policy. Any one can apply for jobs and if hired they can easily obtain a work visa, unlike the U.S. in which you have to go through lots of "red tapes" just to enter this country. The reason why there are many illegal aliens here. Especially from Mexico where it's easier to cross the border illegally.

MarinePaul 11-30-2009 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 96944)
So you're saying that just because someone broke immigration laws in crossing national border, they have the right to be tortured, held captive and shot? Isn't that just a bit harsh?

What I'm saying is, they come here at their own risk. They make a decision to break the law, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? Spare me the crocodile tears. I seriously doubt that the situation you're talking about is the norm.

LoJo 11-30-2009 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96953)
What I'm saying is, they come here at their own risk. They make a decision to break the law, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? Spare me the crocodile tears. I seriously doubt that the situation you're talking about is the norm.

Not all Migrant farm workers are illegals. Many are here under the Federal "Guest Worker" program....Dubya's plan to have migrants here for 3 years and then be deported if they don't obtain a green card. Yeah...right.

In the meantime, these guest workers are subjected to the same abuses as all migrants....in the country legally, or not.

Nearly 80% of all farm workers are immigrant workers and the majority of those are Mexicans.

Look...we have serious immigration issues here in the US. Both the agricultural "industry" and the federal government are part of the problem.

They're here, legally or illegally...they are a huge part of our economy...just "sending them back" won't work.

MarinePaul 11-30-2009 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoJo (Post 96969)
Not all Migrant farm workers are illegals. Many are here under the Federal "Guest Worker" program....Dubya's plan to have migrants here for 3 years and then be deported if they don't obtain a green card. Yeah...right.

In the meantime, these guest workers are subjected to the same abuses as all migrants....in the country legally, or not.

Nearly 80% of all farm workers are immigrant workers and the majority of those are Mexicans.

Look...we have serious immigration issues here in the US. Both the agricultural "industry" and the federal government are part of the problem.

They're here, legally or illegally...they are a huge part of our economy...just "sending them back" won't work.

Not all migrant workers are subject to the conditions you cited in that article, either. Dubya's plan may not have worked, but neither does granting Social Security, welfare benefits and health care to illegals. Put it this way. If they're here illegally and getting abused, I'll still sleep well tonight.

Blue 11-30-2009 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96953)
What I'm saying is, they come here at their own risk. They make a decision to break the law, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? Spare me the crocodile tears. I seriously doubt that the situation you're talking about is the norm.

OK. So if you break the law by, say, driving without a seatbelt, I guess it would be OK to torture you and even shoot you. After all, you made a decision to break the law and you did so at your own risk.

ctmurray 11-30-2009 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoJo (Post 96914)
Hardly slaves? Ha!

Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW)

Keep in mind that the cases cited were those prosecuted...many are not.

Migrant farm workers, both documented and undocumented, suffer terrible abuses similar to the Dubai workers.

It's all about the $$ whether it's here in the U.S. or elsewhere.

Thanks for the link, these cases are really disturbing. Several affected hundreds of people.

Not sure why a Dallas newspaper is the best link I can find, but here it is:

Iowa meatpacking plant raid uncovers illegal immigrants, underage workers | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Headline | National News

These raids in the summer of 2008 were what I was thinking about as being examples of illegals in the US but working in better conditions than in Dubai. But reading the article I now see these workers were being exploited almost as badly. I had thought they just had worked long hours at low pay. But the story outlines treatment that was worse than I remembered.

MarinePaul 11-30-2009 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 96976)
OK. So if you break the law by, say, driving without a seatbelt, I guess it would be OK to torture you and even shoot you. After all, you made a decision to break the law and you did so at your own risk.

I love it that every time you can't come up with a logical answer, you get so ridiculous it's laughable. Typical liberal crap. Tell us again why Ted Kennedy is considered a hero, rather than a drunken murderer.

Blue 11-30-2009 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96981)
I love it that every time you can't come up with a logical answer, you get so ridiculous it's laughable. Typical liberal crap. Tell us again why Ted Kennedy is considered a hero, rather than a drunken murderer.

I'm the one who asked the question, not you. What question did you ask that I was supposed to answer?

You claimed that because the illegal immigrants voluntarily broke the law, you wouldn't mind if they were tortured and shot. I gave you another example of voluntarily breaking the law. Does torture and death seem to be an acceptable punishment in this situation as well? You have not answered the question.

LoJo 11-30-2009 08:13 PM

What about the immigrant ('guest') workers who are here legally and who have been enslaved, tortured, and worse?? WHAT??

MANY OF THE ABUSED WORKERS ARE HERE UNDER THE GUEST WORKER PROGRAM OR ARE LEGAL AND DOCUMENTED!!!! Did you miss that part?

Once again...compassionate Americans sticking their heads in the sand and turning a deaf ear to human rights abuse that is happening right here in the USA!! Human Rights is not a "liberal" or "conservative" issue. It is a human issue.

They're Arab PIGS in Dubai for enslaving workers, but it's ok to do the same here because immigrant workers should just go back home if they don't like it. Yeah. :ani_newspaper:

WTF does Ted Kennedy have to do with anything in this topic? Sheesh.

MarinePaul 11-30-2009 08:30 PM

Ted Kennedy has exactly the same to do with this thread as does a seat belt violation.

MarinePaul 11-30-2009 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue (Post 96983)
I'm the one who asked the question, not you. What question did you ask that I was supposed to answer?

You claimed that because the illegal immigrants voluntarily broke the law, you wouldn't mind if they were tortured and shot. I gave you another example of voluntarily breaking the law. Does torture and death seem to be an acceptable punishment in this situation as well? You have not answered the question.


Who the hell are you to decide who can or can't ask questions? You want to bring up a subject that was discussed months ago, because you can't argue your "point" logically.

There's a huge difference between people entering a country illegally and a minor traffic violation. If you can't see that, I see no point in discussing anything with you.

dangerbob 11-30-2009 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96981)
I love it that every time you can't come up with a logical answer, you get so ridiculous it's laughable. Typical liberal crap. Tell us again why Ted Kennedy is considered a hero, rather than a drunken murderer.

:oops: I thought LoJo gave you a Nobel Peace Prize for not getting personal with each other! :ani_argue::ani_banghead:

Blue 12-01-2009 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinePaul (Post 96988)
Who the hell are you to decide who can or can't ask questions? You want to bring up a subject that was discussed months ago, because you can't argue your "point" logically.

There's a huge difference between people entering a country illegally and a minor traffic violation. If you can't see that, I see no point in discussing anything with you.

I'm sorry. I didn't think you would take the seat belt analogy personally just because we discussed the topic here last summer. I thought it was a actually a good analogy of a law that people commonly choose to break.

Here's another example which hopefully you won't take personally since I don't think we ever discussed it here.

What if someone decides to drive drunk? This is more serious than a minor traffic violation.

In my opinion, driving drunk is worse than crossing the border as an undocumented alien.

Does this person deserve to be chained up, beaten and shot at? And not by the government but by, say, random other people or maybe other drunk drivers? And does this person deserve to be treated like this without any due process, you know, like a trial?

MarinePaul 12-01-2009 06:22 AM

Blue, as far as I'm concerned, drunk drivers are felons, much like your precious illegal aliens. I could care less what happens to anyone who gets into a two thousand pound weapon and endangers every other driver on the road.

Since I used to drive drunk on a regular basis, this is an area I'm familiar with. If a drunk driver has an accident and kills themselves, they deserve it. If they kill someone else, who didn't deserve it, I have no sympathy for whatever happens to them.


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