Keeping Faith, Ochoa Takes Magical Tour

[virginian]

Originally Posted by MarinePaul

Being born and raised in a particular faith doesn't mean that you have to follow that faith throughout your lifetime. Following that logic, if everyone in your family is a mechanic, you can't be anything but a mechanic.

As I grew older, I began to develop my own conception of what religion should be, and it didn't coincide with what some idiot was telling me every Sunday morning, even with the chorus of "Amens" that went along with every sentence he uttered. In fact, when you think about it in the grand scheme of things, Christianity is a minor religion worldwide. There are far more Shintos, Islamics, Jews and Buddhists than Christians. So, who's to say that Christianity is the "right" religion?

Let's be real here. The purpose of any religion is to teach love, understanding and tolerance of your fellow man. Radicals in any religion can justify ridding the earth of anyone who doesn't believe as they do, of course, and can find some passage in their Bible, Koran, Torah or whatever to justify their position.

I used to consider myself an agnostic, but have come to believe that there's a power far greater than myself. What I can't believe is that my choosing to find a spiritual connection through nature is any less valid than spending my Sunday mornings in a church.

I get much more connection to God walking through the woods, or watching a sunset, watching an eagle fly than by listening to some minister telling me how to worship. If that dooms me to the Christian version of hell, then it does.

MarinePaul,

After the statement I wrote that you seem to take issue with I wrote this:

"Be that as it may, I don't think that relieves any of us from performing ongoing thoughtful reflection about what the possibilities are."

So, I pretty much agree with you. I think you and God can figure things out together.

[MarinePaul]

Originally Posted by virginian

MarinePaul,

After the statement I wrote that you seem to take issue with I wrote this:

"Be that as it may, I don't think that relieves any of us from performing ongoing thoughtful reflection about what the possibilities are."

So, I pretty much agree with you. I think you and God can figure things out together.

I didn't take issue with what you wrote. I just wondered why being born into and growing up with a certain religion should bind us to that religion. As I matured, I came to my own conclusions, which differed with what I had been taught. By the way, I also don't believe that fairy tale about George Washington and the cherry tree. So, it wasn't only the religious teaching that I found lacking.

You see, as a thinking person, I believe we owe it to ourselves to learn as much as possible about any subject that interests us, and develop our views based on what we've learned. Whether religion, history, or whatever, if it's worth our interest, it's worth taking the time to learn all we can about it. We can then make intelligent decisions, rather than just accepting what we're told.

[xman5]

Originally Posted by virginian

But if God exists, then God is the judge. And I don't believe God will be handing out waivers on judgment day. If the Christian faith (Catholic and protestant) is right, then the others are not. If the Jewish faith is right then the others are not. If the Islamic faith is right then the others are not. If Buddhism, or Taoism or any single faith is right, then the others are not.

Theological question for you. What if you are born and never heard of Abraham, Jesus or Mohamed? They just discovered a new tribe in the middle of the amazon rain forrest that has never had contact with a westerner or enyone else for that matter. What is there fate?

[virginian]

Originally Posted by xman5

Theological question for you. What if you are born and never heard of Abraham, Jesus or Mohamed? They just discovered a new tribe in the middle of the amazon rain forrest that has never had contact with a westerner or enyone else for that matter. What is there fate?

xman5,

I have an answer, but I am currently in the middle of my workday (writing this message at lunch). I will discuss this later.

[LoJo]

Originally Posted by xman5

Theological question for you. What if you are born and never heard of Abraham, Jesus or Mohamed? They just discovered a new tribe in the middle of the amazon rain forrest that has never had contact with a westerner or enyone else for that matter. What is there fate?

xman.... They are condemned to burn in the eternal flames of Hell!!

Until some do-gooder missionary types get ahold of them, that is.

[virginian]

Intellectual discussions will not convince someone to have faith any more than they will convince someone to fall in love. Matters of the spirit and the heart are not influenced by intellect. I don't know if I am a do-gooder missionary type. I'm not a minister or an evangelical. I'm not a theological expert of any kind. All I know about faith is what my spirit tells me to think and to believe. All I can do is tell you what I think and what I believe and why. That is all I can do.

Originally Posted by xman5

Theological question for you. What if you are born and never heard of Abraham, Jesus or Mohamed? They just discovered a new tribe in the middle of the amazon rain forrest that has never had contact with a westerner or enyone else for that matter. What is there fate?

xman5,

The question you ask is one of THE classic questions for Christians, maybe the classic question. Some non-Christians delight in the question because they think it is a trap for Christians. By the same token, some Christians are frightened because they also think it is a trap. I embrace the question because it points to one of my most fervent hopes, the hope that everyone can be saved.

I believe people who have never been exposed to any reference of Christ can still be saved. Here is why I believe it. Paul, who along with Peter were the the two most prominent members of the first Christian churches, wrote in his letter to the Roman Christians: "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." The definition of imputed is "to attribute or ascribe to another."

I believe that people like the ones you described will be judged by the quality of their hearts because they had no knowledge of the Law (which is Christ). But once a person knows of Christ, that person is accountable.

Anyone who wants to continue a more in-depth discussion of faith can send me a private message and I will send you my personal email address.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by xman5

Theological question for you. What if you are born and never heard of Abraham, Jesus or Mohamed? They just discovered a new tribe in the middle of the amazon rain forrest that has never had contact with a westerner or enyone else for that matter. What is there fate?

Did you hear that the lost tribe story was a hoax? Some group trying to get attention to stop the Brazilian government from logging.

This is not meant to be a commentary on religion.

When you think about it, almost everything we accept as true we have no direct knowledge of. There's the weather that falls or shines on us, but beyond that, most of what we refer to as our "experience" is mostly based on what people tell us either in person, in writing or electronically (tv, radio, internet).

[xman5]

I had a feeling that they might be fake. However there are plenty of small tribes in the Amazon and other places that know nothing of the modern world.

MP it sounds reasonable.

[Blue]

They still are remote and untouched and all that. They are just not undiscovered.

[MarinePaul]

The best commentary on religion I've heard is the one by George Carlin. He nailed it on the head. I'm sure there's a clip on YouTube.

Xman's question regarding people who've never been exposed to Christianity is also a valid one.