Cristie Did Not Address That Ball on the 12th Hole

[bangkokbobby]

I posted this over in the Seoul Sister Cristie Kerr forum (yes, we have threads for non-Koreans, too!) for those without TGC...so here is a close-up view...you make the call...

Originally Posted by bangkokbobby

Originally Posted by ghinhee

What went on with CK at the Fields??

Here's a little video explaining the situation. In the first part, Grant Boone and Dottie discuss the penalty during the second round rain delay and show the shot in question. The second part has Dottie's strong reaction to Cristie Kerr's comments to the press during final round play and the end has an interview with Cristie after her final round was over:

left click to stream, right-click to download (24MB)

CRISTIE KERR PENALTY CONTROVERSY VIDEO

[clandestine]

Once Christie grounds her putter and her ball moves, the action of grounding her putter is deemed the cause of said ball moving. Call it gravity, call it wind, call it penalty and replace the ball.

Christie is fully aware of the rules. Since she had a hard time replacing her ball after marking, she should have made sure that she did not ground her putter prior to her stroke. It was obvious she grounded her putter. That action under the rules of golf, was the cause of her ball moving. There is no escape clause.

[LoJo]

Originally Posted by clandestine

.... Call it gravity, call it wind, call it penalty and replace the ball.

Christie is fully aware of the rules. Since she had a hard time replacing her ball after marking, she should have made sure that she did not ground her putter prior to her stroke. It was obvious she grounded her putter. That action under the rules of golf, was the cause of her ball moving. There is no escape clause.

clandestine....Had it actually been wind that caused the ball to move, she would have incurred no penalty regardless of the fact that she'd grounded her club. And she would have been correct in playing from the new position.

ajraymond cited the Dec. 18-2b/4....note the last phrase:

However, if the ball moved after the club was placed in position but before the player had completed taking his stance, he incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a for having caused the ball to move and must replace the ball, unless there is strong evidence that wind or some other agency caused the ball to move.

[wiefan]

Hi ya Lojo...."some other Agency"....in your opinion and/or rules interpretation....is Gravity considered in this category....if so....Didn't Cristie do the correct thing....just curious.....if Cristie cited this rule and if Gravity is an outside agency....wouldn't Cristie have a good case to build on

anyway....have a good day....by the way, I have waited until you entered this controversy before asking my question.....way to go Lojo!!!....anyway...see ya!!

[virginian]

Originally Posted by clandestine

Christie is fully aware of the rules. Since she had a hard time replacing her ball after marking, she should have made sure that she did not ground her putter prior to her stroke. It was obvious she grounded her putter. That action under the rules of golf, was the cause of her ball moving. There is no escape clause.

You are right. Cristie does know the rules. She has been the highest ranking American golfer for some time now. She has been on winning Solheim Cup teams. She probably knows the rules as well as anybody.

And she also knew the tournament was being televised. And she also knew that reporters and fans and any other person who wants to can call the rules officials and lodge a complaint.

Knowing all of that, she still played the ball where she was convinced that gravity (an agency like the wind) had taken it.

She knows the rules and she played the hole correctly. The rules are sometimes so ambiguous that when they are unfairly interpreted, a player can be hurt. In this case, Cristie was hurt by an unfair interpretation of the rules.

To say that she was unprofessional because she would not shut up and sit down when she was penalized unfairly is just plain wrong ... period.

[LoJo]

Originally Posted by wiefan

Hi ya Lojo...."some other Agency"....in your opinion and/or rules interpretation....is Gravity considered in this category....if so....Didn't Cristie do the correct thing....just curious.....if Cristie cited this rule and if Gravity is an outside agency....wouldn't Cristie have a good case to build on

Wiefan...c'mon now... you know that "gravity" wouldn't be considered an Outside Agency.

Cristie should have called in a R.O. before proceding. I"m sure she's learned a lesson.

[LoJo]

Originally Posted by virginian

.... Knowing all of that, she still played the ball where she was convinced that gravity (an agency like the wind) had taken it.

She knows the rules and she played the hole correctly. The rules are sometimes so ambiguous that when they are unfairly interpreted, a player can be hurt. In this case, Cristie was hurt by an unfair interpretation of the rules.

To say that she was unprofessional because she would not shut up and sit down when she was penalized unfairly is just plain wrong ... period.

Your premise that "gravity" is an "agency like the wind" is wrong. It's not.

There was nothing unfairly interpreted about this incident, except that IF wind had caused the ball to move, then there would have been no penalty. I never heard Cristie claim anything about the wind blowing her ball after she'd grounded her club. It was understood that the severe slope of the ridge on the green is what created the possibility of movement of the ball.

The question was... had she grounded her club behind the ball prior to it moving?

By the video evidence, and her agreement, yes she had. End of story.

[RainMan]

This article quotes Kerr giving her objection.

An excerpt:

"I was very upset," Kerr said. "I was on the side of the slope on 12, and it was extremely windy and gusty, and I tried to mark it, it kept moving, mark it, kept moving and I didn't want to ground my club. He (LPGA Tour vice president of rules and officials Doug Brecht) asked me after the round what happened. And I said, this is what happened and I didn't feel like I'd grounded my club.

"Then they brought me into the trailer, and, I know what I felt, and it appeared as if I grounded my club. But, it was not, in my opinion, that my grounding of the club moved the ball. I thought the wind moved the ball. There's a provision in the rule, that says if there's strong evidence to suggest that wind moved the ball -- and which, in this case, I believe it did -- there's no penalty. I didn't think I grounded my club and then they brought me in there, showed it to me and it looked like I did.

"And that's kind of what happened. Sometimes you get penalized if it's an extremely marginal call. You know, it could have gone either way. And I still maintain that I don't feel like I grounded my club, and even if I did ground my club, I don't feel like that's the cause of the ball moving."

It kinda sounds like after she watched the tape, she realized that the putter was grounded and the rules officials convinced her that was all that mattered. Then after accepting the penalty, she realized that if the wind caused it to move, then grounding the putter didn't matter so she went back and tried to get them to reconsider.

[RainMan]

I also don't buy the whole "gravity" argument. I mean, yeah, Kerr was playing with Christina, but c'mon ..... gravitational forces ???

[cleo]

Originally Posted by RainMan

This article quotes Kerr giving her objection.

An excerpt:

"I was very upset," Kerr said. "I was on the side of the slope on 12, and it was extremely windy and gusty, and I tried to mark it, it kept moving, mark it, kept moving and I didn't want to ground my club. He (LPGA Tour vice president of rules and officials Doug Brecht) asked me after the round what happened. And I said, this is what happened and I didn't feel like I'd grounded my club.

"Then they brought me into the trailer, and, I know what I felt, and it appeared as if I grounded my club. But, it was not, in my opinion, that my grounding of the club moved the ball. I thought the wind moved the ball. There's a provision in the rule, that says if there's strong evidence to suggest that wind moved the ball -- and which, in this case, I believe it did -- there's no penalty. I didn't think I grounded my club and then they brought me in there, showed it to me and it looked like I did.

"And that's kind of what happened. Sometimes you get penalized if it's an extremely marginal call. You know, it could have gone either way. And I still maintain that I don't feel like I grounded my club, and even if I did ground my club, I don't feel like that's the cause of the ball moving."

It kinda sounds like after she watched the tape, she realized that the putter was grounded and the rules officials convinced her that was all that mattered. Then after accepting the penalty, she realized that if the wind caused it to move, then grounding the putter didn't matter so she went back and tried to get them to reconsider.

After reading from the link it certainly would appear that Cristie's argument boils down to whether it was the wind or her grounding of the putter that caused movement. The problem is we can see the putter being grounded but we can't see the wind blowing the ball and causing it to move.

It is interesting that even after seeing the replay, she isn't convinced that she grounded her putter.

It's also interesting that her tears couldn't move those bullies. :-)